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Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

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Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#91

Post by jcranmer »

vundercind wrote: post #30
mikeyouse wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Uh, you still need a furnace (though it could be electric) if you live somewhere that ever really gets cold, right? For now - and only in part of the country. Most of the newest models can output 100% of their rating down to something like -5ºF -- they're easy enough to oversize as well, so if your 99% heating load is e.g. 48,000BTU, a 60,000BTU heat pump that's only outputting 80% of rated BTUs due to the extreme…

I’d say -15°F or lower is something you need to design for at least into the light-blue area on this map: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tdK_AMaZ9pg/Vb51WrvPDhI/AAAAAAAAD5... Which is quite a lot of the country. Light blue is a typical Winter low point in the -10°F to 0°F, which means you will see -15°F or lower often enough to worry about it.

The dataset is typical winter low for 1984-2014. Earth is warming thanks to climate change, and the lowest lows have notably warmed. See, e.g., https://xkcd.com/1321/. In my 12 winters of living in the light blue zone, I think I've spent like a grand total of 36 hours or so in sub-0°F temperatures, and that was pretty much the one period mentioned in the xkcd comic.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#92

Post by nostrademons »

These states really need to get their electric rates down if they want to accelerate adoption of electrification technologies.

We were planning to fully electrify our house + transportation in the next few years. PG&E rate hikes and net metering policies put the damper on that. It's now more expensive to fuel a vehicle with electricity than gas, so I'm charging my PHEV at work and using gas for the rest. We have solar + battery sized for the existing usage of our house (gas heating, cooking, and vehicles), because that's what PG&E would let us interconnect. Upgrading the size to support a heat pump or EV would make us lose NEM2, so we've just chosen to defer those upgrades until NEM3 is rolled back or NEM4 comes out or there's new technology or the Californian government falls.

In a way this is the market doing what it's supposed to. There's a shortage of electricity because of everyone doing electrification upgrades, so the price of electricity rises, which incentivizes people to defer further electrification upgrades until the grid can handle it. But if states actually want adoption, they need to solve the utility bottlenecks and increase generation capacity to support all the new usage.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#93

Post by jazzyjackson »

readingnews wrote: post #86

I just replaced a furnace... everyone I called for a quote would not touch a heat pump with a 20foot pole, or they wanted prices that were 2X what a separate furnace and AC would cost to install. It was very strange. This is the second home where I had this experience.. basically, they really did not want to install it. I ended up going with gas as no local person would install/warranty a heat pump, or, it was priced…

wait I didn't know I could replace my AC with a heat pump, can I replace my noisy AF condenser that's always grinding and hissing or do heat pumps make the same noises

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#94

Post by TheBlight »

huytersd wrote: post #90
readingnews wrote: post #86

I just replaced a furnace... everyone I called for a quote would not touch a heat pump with a 20foot pole, or they wanted prices that were 2X what a separate furnace and AC would cost to install. It was very strange. This is the second home where I had this experience.. basically, they really did not want to install it. I ended up going with gas as no local person would install/warranty a heat pump, or, it was priced…

If you’re somewhat rural the contractors just don’t have the experience to do it so they try to quote you out of the decision. I had to shop around until I found a contractor that had done this before and I was able to get a whole home heat pump for about the same price as a regular furnace/AC system (because of the rebates).

How well do they function? Do they provide nice consistent heat? How's the noise? Sorry to clog up HN with a random request of a product quality review but I'm in the market right now to replace my furnace as well. Thanks.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#95

Post by epistasis »

readingnews wrote: post #86

I just replaced a furnace... everyone I called for a quote would not touch a heat pump with a 20foot pole, or they wanted prices that were 2X what a separate furnace and AC would cost to install. It was very strange. This is the second home where I had this experience.. basically, they really did not want to install it. I ended up going with gas as no local person would install/warranty a heat pump, or, it was priced…

Your experience is extremely common. Residential HVAC contractors tend to be extremely conservative, and don't adopt new technologies quickly, or even attempt to understand them. I had some flexibility in time in replacing my 50 year old gas furnace, so I was able to call about 8 contractors before I finally found one who was comfortable with the tech and wanted to do it.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#96

Post by o11c »

mikeyouse wrote: post #23
vundercind wrote: post #2

> Death is coming for the old-school gas furnace—and its killer is the humble heat pump. Uh, you still need a furnace (though it could be electric) if you live somewhere that ever really gets cold, right? [edit] I mean, seeing it presented as a furnace replacement is weird to me. I’ve always seen it sold as an air conditioner replacement that also happens to heat (with weird characteristics that often confuse people—…

> Uh, you still need a furnace (though it could be electric) if you live somewhere that ever really gets cold, right? For now - and only in part of the country. Most of the newest models can output 100% of their rating down to something like -5ºF -- they're easy enough to oversize as well, so if your 99% heating load is e.g. 48,000BTU, a 60,000BTU heat pump that's only outputting 80% of rated BTUs due to the extreme…

Temperature rating is irrelevant if the outdoor unit turns into a solid block of ice before it gets that low.

Oddly enough, it tends to snow when it's cold. Even rain can a problem since the nature of a heap pump means the unit is cooler than the surroundings.

So often for a few nights of the year, the alleged "heat pump" actually just falls back to electric heating.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#97

Post by dralley »

david422 wrote: post #60

I recently got heat pumps in the hopes that I could phase out my oil furnace. What I can say so far is: The temperature is wildly inconsistent. I don't know if this is a software issue, a hardware issue, or just the way heatpumps work. I've had the installer come back and look at it, I've had the heat pump rep come and look at it too. They basically checked everything and tried to convince me this is normal. With oil…

That is simply not normal. I have a heat pump downstairs (albeit a fancier Mitsubishi one) and it stays within one degree of the target temperature at all times. It's much more comfortable and stable than it was with the previous gas furnace or the gas furnace we still use for the upstairs, and it handled the temperature dropping into the low teens overnight with no issues.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#98

Post by TheBlight »

zbrozek wrote: post #58
rconti wrote: post #39

Bay Area, just beginning a remodel+expansion of our home. We've never had air conditioning, and our gas furnace is well over 20 years old. We'd likely need to upsize the furnace anyway, and for resale reasons if nothing else, adding A/C (and the attendant larger ducts or whatever else) is a no-brainer while we have the house apart. A heat pump is absolutely a no-brainer in our case. I like being able to get away from…

PG&E electric rates are so high that it's operationally more expensive to use a heat pump than a condensing gas system. The heat pump is the better deal practically everywhere else in the contiguous US. I'm installing a heat pump system in PG&E territory as part of a remodel, but pairing it with a large solar system.

Aren't PG&E gas rates substantially higher than their electric rates?

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#99

Post by epistasis »

subsubzero wrote: post #84
herpdyderp wrote: post #5

The states listed are: - California - Colorado - Maine - Maryland - Massachusetts - New Jersey - New York - Oregon - Rhode Island

Interestingly enough, That list of states besides Colorado and Maine all were the biggest losers of population in 2023, meaning people are leaving these states. - California -0.9 - Maryland -0.5 - Massachusetts -0.6 - New Jersey -0.5 - New York -1.1 - Oregon -0.1 - Rhode Island -0.3

They are also rich states that are pricing out people rather than building housing.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#100

Post by lolinder »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #93
readingnews wrote: post #86

I just replaced a furnace... everyone I called for a quote would not touch a heat pump with a 20foot pole, or they wanted prices that were 2X what a separate furnace and AC would cost to install. It was very strange. This is the second home where I had this experience.. basically, they really did not want to install it. I ended up going with gas as no local person would install/warranty a heat pump, or, it was priced…

wait I didn't know I could replace my AC with a heat pump, can I replace my noisy AF condenser that's always grinding and hissing or do heat pumps make the same noises

A heat pump is just an air conditioner that can be run in reverse. Replacing your air conditioner might help if it makes the noise because it's old and broken, but if you just really dislike the sound of an air conditioner it probably won't help much.
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