Live data from Hacker News

"Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

thebureau.news

91–100 of 417 posts

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#91
post #3

It's quite bizarre any jurisdiction would allow someone to buy housing there when they can't legally live in it.

Most governments would do anything for foreign direct investment. From many points of view, having foreign investors buy property without immigrating is a best case scenario for governments.

Then that's fantastic! Since housing has come so unaffordable in Canada I'm looking at moving to Japan. I'm seeing detached houses 60m transit from Tokyo for less than a down payment on a condo 60m from Vancouver.

So if I buy a place there and move, it's win/win for everyone!

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#92
post #67

Just the other day I read that "to shanghai" is to kidnap or trick someone into working for you. I immediately thought of HSBC.

> kidnap or trick

I thought it meant kidnap, specifically to kidnap a sailor in port and make him work aboard ship; as in "press gang", "pressed man".

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#93
post #62

All sounds very plausible, but where are the effects of this? We should be seeing many people holding mortgages at HSBC not able to pay. Are there no public stats showing how many lack of payments being made to HSBC? Is HSBC going to hold on to these properties taking massive losses? For how long? It has definitely helped the run up of prices here. It will also help the collapse of prices as well, either that or the…

HSBC Canada is sold to RBC

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#94

>The whistleblower, whomThe Bureau is calling D.M., immigrated to Canada as an international student from India, making him a minority among mostly Chinese-Canadian co-workers at the Aurora branch. I mean it's real Chinese income backed by fake paperwork. There's PRC capital controls, rich PRC national who buy RE abroad are going to do it via laundering services and has been for decade+. Banks are fine with this and…

It could be real Chinese income backed by fake paper work (money laundering) or fake income backed by fake paper work (fraud). You can take out $50k per year, a lot more via exemptions, so you don’t need money laundering to get money out of china into the USA (I had to move a few hundred K before, all the paper work was legit).

> You can take out $50k per year

Try buying a house with 50k a year... This is exactly what the "scheme" solves. You have new immigrants who have (in many cases) legitimate money (e.g. by selling property back in china) but cannot move it out of the country quickly due to capital controls on the chinese side.

Since mortgages are meant to spread out costs over time, it's the perfect solution. However, banks (understandably) care about income rather than existing capital. So you have a lot of "safe" customers who are unlikely to default and less sensitive to interest rates (compared to the local borrower pool), and banks looking for customers amidst high interest rates... You can see how something like this can easily arise from these conditions...

> you don’t need money laundering to get money out of china into the USA

I cannot comment on what your situation was (maybe through a business?), but AFAIK it is very hard to move capital out for regular individuals. Your realistic options to wire out capital are just "education" and "tourism". While technically you can claim "investment", it will almost always not be approved and cause a watch to be put on all your accounts.

That being said, usually documentation of the funds outside of china is completely legitimate and above board. There is no need to fake this. The only paperwork magic that needs to happen is towards the chines government... However, it still _looks_ like money laundering because you can only wire $50k a year, so many need to resort to wiring from accounts of different individuals (friends and family) to different individuals, despite the funds already being fully documented and reported outside china.

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#95
post #80
post #62

All sounds very plausible, but where are the effects of this? We should be seeing many people holding mortgages at HSBC not able to pay. Are there no public stats showing how many lack of payments being made to HSBC? Is HSBC going to hold on to these properties taking massive losses? For how long? It has definitely helped the run up of prices here. It will also help the collapse of prices as well, either that or the…

The article suggests this is money laundering. It would make sense to have fake borrowers with fake incomes as part of a layering operation. Someone wants to get $large_sum out of China. They can't do this without raising lots of flags in both countries. So they set up an army of fake borrowers, have them take out fraudulent mortgages on real properties in Canada, pay down the mortgages, and sell the property to obta…

Not Canada, but before the pandemic caused rural housing prices to go up, there was a crime syndicate buying houses for marijuana grow operations and having the house pay for itself essentially until they got caught. https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/doj-raid-marijuana-g...

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at any wiki article on any major global bank, the chapter about 'controversies and legal issues' is always a thick list, HSBC ain't worse or better than others. There are no good guys there, that's not why the business was set up and corresponding folks were/are hired. If you want more controls, enforce more regulations, they do work if well defined.

HSBC seems worse than many others. When I moved to Canada my immigration lawyer explicitly advised to stay away from HSBC, this was in 2000 or so and they already had a pretty bad rep. The various scandals since then haven't improved that reputation. TD, CT and RB have their own problems but none of them have received even close to the total fines that HSBC has (to the best of my knowledge). I agree there are no good…

I've been using HSBC in Canada and the USA for 15 years, they're great for exactly the reasons they shouldn't be. Their tooling basically lets you do whatever you want with no oversight. It's kinda weird, but I liked it. Sad they sold their Canadian business to RBC (even though they sold their USA business to Citizen Bank, they allowed high net worths to stay but the Canadian arm did not, wondering if this news is the reason for their exit)

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#97
post #3

It's quite bizarre any jurisdiction would allow someone to buy housing there when they can't legally live in it.

The historical Canadian project, like all anglo settler projects, is structurally about early arrivals to the frontier making money selling to later arrivals. The idea that housing is primarily for locals is a newer idea.

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I presume you were foreign national with more options. Options for diasphora Chinese, many who illegally hold dual citizenship and relies on PRC nationality to do transactions/capital flight in PRC is different. I highlighted the original quote where branch is mostly Chinese-Canadian for context. Aurora is 20% Chinese, it's a big diasphora neighbourhood. There isn't some big "fake chinese income" conspiracy, it's the…

Ya, foreign nationals are allowed to export their earnings. But even Chinese citizens can also pool those $50k yearly allocations, it doesn’t take a lot of friends and family to do that. I’m not really sure what is happening among the rich, but among the middle class, it isn’t so much money laundering but having lots of savings with no good investment options, or just wanting to make money while someone else takes on…

> But even Chinese citizens can also pool those $50k yearly allocations, it doesn’t take a lot of friends and family to do that.

So as an observer of this, you will see money coming out of one place, spread to many accounts, wired overseas to different recipients, then re-aggregated...

What do you think that looks like...? Surely not money laundering?

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I presume you were foreign national with more options. Options for diasphora Chinese, many who illegally hold dual citizenship and relies on PRC nationality to do transactions/capital flight in PRC is different. I highlighted the original quote where branch is mostly Chinese-Canadian for context. Aurora is 20% Chinese, it's a big diasphora neighbourhood. There isn't some big "fake chinese income" conspiracy, it's the…

Ya, foreign nationals are allowed to export their earnings. But even Chinese citizens can also pool those $50k yearly allocations, it doesn’t take a lot of friends and family to do that. I’m not really sure what is happening among the rich, but among the middle class, it isn’t so much money laundering but having lots of savings with no good investment options, or just wanting to make money while someone else takes on…

It happens, it can be more annoying than one thinks since people with wealth to exfiltrate correlated with other family members who also have wealth to exfiltrate, graft is family business. Nephew/niece studying abroad? That's 100k gone per year for next 4-5 years. Meanwhile living well is expensive, annoying to be dependant on personal capital flight group. And post crackdown, it's more risky to drag family/friends into pooling. Especially if they're public sector/public sector adjacent. Frequently, it's easier to pay someone commission to move money for you.

In my experience, middle class aren't buying million+ RE, they pool together savings to send kids abroad, and maybe put a down payment on a condo that the kid pays off once they get decent job in west. And by middle class we really mean upper flat out highincome top %5-10 relative to all PRC house holds who are middle class tier1/2 regions.

But agreed, domestic non gov investment ecosystem pretty trash, hard to beat investing in your kid(s) and saving for retirement until a mature system develops. Which IMO hard goal since focus isn't to further wide wealth disparity by giving that 5-10% more consumption/investment abilities but to bring up the next quantiles of households - the actual middle class. This is where my assessment departs from most, I think "common prosperity" for PRC is getting more households richer, but at PRC development levels, that diminishes the households with enough savings to retire and surplus to invest. And this has all sorts of implications on inflation/FX rate.

Re: "Fake Chinese income" mortgages fuel Toronto real estate bubble: HSBC bank leaks

#100
To maybe offer a different perspective: I think the Canadian mortgages linked to Chinese accounts will likely all be paid. What may be happening is that there is a lot of underground chinese financial activity that is not recorded in Canada and part of this 'network' is utilized to get money out of china.
Post reply on HN