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Germany explores 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

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Re: Germany explores 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#91

Post by foobian »

lorenzhs wrote: post #89
foobian wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you’re employed by a German entity and your salary is 91.1k€, your take-home income would be around 53.8k€. > Put another way - the $100k / 91.1k€ are the Arbeitgeberbrutto, they correspond to 75.5k€ Arbeitnehmerbrutto I fully disagree. I'm talking about the Arbeitgeberbrutto as it does not make any difference for the employer if he sends the money to you or to the state/health insurance/.... He is already payin…

As an employee, the Arbeitgeberbrutto is a number you never see. You’re not saying that employing people isn’t worth it, you’re saying that working in Germany isn’t worth it. Then you have to take the employee’s perspective, not the employer’s. Nobody advertises the true cost to the employer in other countries either. How much do all those benefits to US employees cost? Do you include that when you list US salaries,…

> you’re saying that working in Germany isn’t worth it.

Yes, that's my first sentence in my first comment. My comment was not about reasoning if it is worth to employ people in germany but to state why people may prefer to work less.

> How much do all those benefits to US employees cost? Do you include that when you list US salaries, or do those get magically excluded because health insurance isn’t mandatory?

Yes, if the employer pays it it is part of the loan and should be considered if you compare the loans between different countries.

> Your premise just seems fundamentally flawed.

Okay, to be honest I just don't see how it is flawed. Also I don't have anything left to say. I just don't see why I shouldn't consider it as part of the salary as it would not make a difference to the employer to pay it to the employee instead if the employee deductions wouldn't exist.

-------

Edit: I can't answer anymore. So I'm editing this post.

> Making an argument about how people may want to work less based on a number most have never seen [...] is a flawed argument no matter how you approach it.

Yes, that makes sense. Most employees likely won't think about how much of the Arbeitgeberbrutto is taken away. Still I think if you know it then it reduces ones motivation and it also has the indirect effect of reducing the Arbeitnehmerbrutto an employer is willing to pay and therefore employees may be less motivated due to a low salary.

Re: Germany explores 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#92

Post by poisonborz »

diarrhea wrote: post #81
poisonborz wrote: post #16

First maybe have a 2-3 month probation period like most of the continent instead of 6?

Please no, because then the draconian 3 months notice period kicks in. Truly an artefact of a time past. Take today’s date: if you quit February 1st, you can only start at a new place June 1st! At least 3, but up to 4 months of a continued work relationship is unattractive for both parties I’d say. (At least that’s the widely used rule; the law only specifies a minimum notice period of 1 month)

I don't get this, what has probation to do with the notice period? I don't know of anyone in the industry who has a contract with less than 3 (maybe 2) months of notice.

Your work is not serious if your employee can risk you leaving within 1 month (counting in unused holidays, 1-2 weeks even?)

Re: Germany explores 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#93

Post by lorenzhs »

foobian wrote: post #91
lorenzhs wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an employee, the Arbeitgeberbrutto is a number you never see. You’re not saying that employing people isn’t worth it, you’re saying that working in Germany isn’t worth it. Then you have to take the employee’s perspective, not the employer’s. Nobody advertises the true cost to the employer in other countries either. How much do all those benefits to US employees cost? Do you include that when you list US salaries,…

> you’re saying that working in Germany isn’t worth it. Yes, that's my first sentence in my first comment. My comment was not about reasoning if it is worth to employ people in germany but to state why people may prefer to work less. > How much do all those benefits to US employees cost? Do you include that when you list US salaries, or do those get magically excluded because health insurance isn’t mandatory? Yes, if…

Making an argument about how people may want to work less based on a number most have never seen or care about is a flawed argument no matter how you approach it.

Re: Germany explores 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#94

Post by missedthecue »

vinni2 wrote: post #87
missedthecue wrote: post #86

Wait... There's a shortage of labor so the solution is to restrict the supply of labor? Simply from a math perspective (not political) wouldn't going to a 6 day workweek do more to solve the problem?

I guess their logic is that it will attract labor from other countries. It certainly sounds attractive to me.

If it works I guess that's good for Germany but isn't that ultimately musical chairs? You're only poaching labor from other markets, not increasing the supply of it.

Re: Germany explores 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#95

Post by somewhereoutth »

dustedcodes wrote: post #56
somewhereoutth wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that in the nascent EU single market, the native language is English. Of course you should be fluent in the language of the country in which you work/live, but increasingly this will be less important - assuming that the EU wants any chance of competing with US/China that is.

> assuming that the EU wants any chance of competing with US/China that is Germany can import/export and trade with everyone outside of Germany without dumbing down their population to people with a vocabulary of 100 words. Cross border trade language may be English, but domestic business language is German.

My understanding is that trade in goods within the Single Market has worked very well, but trade in services not so much - not least due to language barriers. This becomes an issue because service based businesses (which includes law, finance, and creative industries, as well as hairdressing) also benefit from economies of scale - witness the relative success of Silicon Valley and Hollywood, with an immediate market of ~350MM people.

Re: Germany explores 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#96

Post by anticensor »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #75
anticensor wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious people would object violently.

Saturday is already off and Christians don't seem to complain too much

They still get Sunday though. With a 6-day week period, the Christian holy day (along with Muslim and Jewish holy days) would often clash with a work day.

Re: Germany explores 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#97

Post by mgraupner »

shasts wrote: post #83
mgraupner wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing. Would you mind disclosing where in Germany you are and what here degree is in?

Bayern. 4 years bachelor's degree in civil engineering, hydro science and engineering Master's.

Ok, that's a field I'm not familiar with. I guess this is more of a government field of work and they are more conservative in their hiring process. I found the following jobs and the amount is pretty limited (and in Eastern Germany/Saxonia): https://www.xing.com/jobs/hydrowissenschaften?keywords=Hydro... or https://www.melioplan.de/stellenangebote

Edit: https://www.stepstone.de/jobs/wasserbau-ingenieur Here are far more jobs, so there seem to be at least some available.

Did she contact some professors at her university here in Germany? They often can provide contacts to industry or the government.

Other than that good look at finding a job for her, she should not give up!

Re: Germany explores 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#98

Post by nvm0n2 »

mrks_hy wrote: post #63
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"testing a 4-day workweek" So, it is a 4-day workweek? So how is title misleading? HN has a character limit, so sometimes titles get changed to fit.

The title is misleading because it says Germany is exploring - suggesting there is anything like a cultural shift/push on a society-wide scale to explore. That unfortunately is not the case. German work culture as a whole is very much still "butts in seats", working for the predefined number of hours per week with a fixed quota each day, and the Stempeluhr [1] is very much alive even in white collar jobs. 1: https://…

If you interpret Germany to mean German government mandate then I can see how it would seem misleading, but if you interpret Germany as the people who live there, then 45 random companies (that the journalist could find, there will be more) is actually pretty good evidence of a society wide exploration.

Re: Germany explores 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#99

Post by FirmwareBurner »

MrGilbert wrote: post #58
Czarcasm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flawless communication between team members is important when developing complex products. If my team was primarily comprised of people who only fluently speak German, and we are located in Germany, is it not reasonable for me to set a requirement that new candidates must speak fluent German? Why are you entitled to have people speak your language, when you are the immigrant?

Because it's equally hard to find good workforce here in Germany. Besides, I expect every IT worker to be able to at least understand, if not speak English in a way that two foreigners can understand each other pretty well. How else did you acquire your knowledge? By only falling back to literature in your language? That seems kind of limiting if you are working in IT. Your "entitlement" argument sounds a bit harsh f…

>Because it's equally hard to find good workforce here in Germany.

1) There's no shortage of developers just a shortage of pay.

2) It's also hard to find doctors, that doesn't mean hospitals should compromise and let everyone practice who doesn't speak the language practice medicine just because there's a shortage.

Similarly, a lot of companies don't want to compromise on the language skillset, especially if most of their products are only for the local market that will be used mainly by other German speakers. So having devs not fluent in the local language and not understand the little details and semantics in requirements written in German, means a lot of time wasted with translations and clarifications.

It's the first argument HN brings against offshoring, saying it doesn't work because foreign devs don't understand the business and semantics of a foreign language or culture. Why do you think it suddenly doesn't also apply with foreign workers on-shore?

>How else did you acquire your knowledge? By only falling back to literature in your language? That seems kind of limiting if you are working in IT.

The limiting factor is not other developers, although it could be sometimes. It's the managers who don't use English on a regular basis like IT workers do, especially if like I said before, their company mostly caters to the German speaking market, and they wish to address developers directly for questions and feedback in meetings without only reaching out to the German speakers in the team to have to transalte further.

If you have a company meeting in the US or UK, is it not in the local language ? Why would any other country be different?

Re: Germany explores 4-day workweek amid labor shortage

#100

Post by 2-718-281-828 »

mushufasa wrote: post #20

I spent the summer in Berlin and, as an American, was a bit culture shocked by how little time people worked, and how so many people I met bragged about collecting paid time off for reasons they admitted to making up, which the government enforced all employers must allow. As an employer, I'd be afraid of hiring in countries like Germany for an international workforce if that meant I have to have a patchwork of speci…

I'd say this attitude is while not exclusively found in Berlin but certainly more frequent there. Berlin is kind of a failed state on multiple levels and this fosters and attitude of "why should I work more than I absolutely have to if I don't gain anything from doing more and still will have to struggle with paying my rent?". the ridiculous influx of immigrants primarily interested in welfare isn't helping either. Places like Munich, Frankfurt, Leipzig etc will give a different picture.
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