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Teatotaller cafe owner wins Instagram case in court

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Re: Teatotaller cafe owner wins Instagram case in court

#91

Post by pdonis »

strogonoff wrote: post #85
pdonis wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the law does not penalize selling that information This is a different proposal from what you made before. This proposed law would not require users to be paying customers (so apps could still have a free tier). It would just require that sensitive personal information gained from apps not be sold to third parties for profit, as is now required for phone records. The effect would be similar, since the ad-support…

If I didn’t provide the definition for “sensitive information” in my comment that doesn’t mean the law can’t have it. Same as I did not give you a full definition of what “phone records” means, but the relevant law has it. > This proposed law would not require users to be paying customers If it’s made illegal to profit from users through such indirect means, then there would be no choice for companies but to require…

> If it’s made illegal to profit from users through such indirect means, then there would be no choice for companies but to require users to be paying customers.

Yes, there would. I already addressed this. Plenty of apps have a free tier (which means those users are not paying customers) but don't sell user information to third parties. There is no reason to outlaw those apps, and your proposal wouldn't.

> The core issue is not that users don’t pay

I agree, which is why I went to the trouble of pointing out that apps could still have a free tier under your proposal.

> Companies can still provide subsidized accounts

Yes, but this is by no means the only possibility. See above.

Re: Teatotaller cafe owner wins Instagram case in court

#92

Post by pdonis »

strogonoff wrote: post #85
pdonis wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the law does not penalize selling that information This is a different proposal from what you made before. This proposed law would not require users to be paying customers (so apps could still have a free tier). It would just require that sensitive personal information gained from apps not be sold to third parties for profit, as is now required for phone records. The effect would be similar, since the ad-support…

If I didn’t provide the definition for “sensitive information” in my comment that doesn’t mean the law can’t have it. Same as I did not give you a full definition of what “phone records” means, but the relevant law has it. > This proposed law would not require users to be paying customers If it’s made illegal to profit from users through such indirect means, then there would be no choice for companies but to require…

> If I didn’t provide the definition for “sensitive information” in my comment that doesn’t mean the law can’t have it.

Sure, it would, but that doesn't mean the definition in the law that ended up getting passed would be what you want it to be. Regulatory capture is a thing.

Re: Teatotaller cafe owner wins Instagram case in court

#94

Post by strogonoff »

pdonis wrote: post #91
strogonoff wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I didn’t provide the definition for “sensitive information” in my comment that doesn’t mean the law can’t have it. Same as I did not give you a full definition of what “phone records” means, but the relevant law has it. > This proposed law would not require users to be paying customers If it’s made illegal to profit from users through such indirect means, then there would be no choice for companies but to require…

> If it’s made illegal to profit from users through such indirect means, then there would be no choice for companies but to require users to be paying customers. Yes, there would. I already addressed this. Plenty of apps have a free tier (which means those users are not paying customers) but don't sell user information to third parties. There is no reason to outlaw those apps, and your proposal wouldn't. > The core i…

> There is no reason to outlaw those apps, and your proposal wouldn't.

It’s not about outlawing any app or service, free tier or not. It’s about making a business model illegal because it is anti-competition and anti-free-market.

Re: Teatotaller cafe owner wins Instagram case in court

#95

Post by strogonoff »

pdonis wrote: post #92
strogonoff wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I didn’t provide the definition for “sensitive information” in my comment that doesn’t mean the law can’t have it. Same as I did not give you a full definition of what “phone records” means, but the relevant law has it. > This proposed law would not require users to be paying customers If it’s made illegal to profit from users through such indirect means, then there would be no choice for companies but to require…

> If I didn’t provide the definition for “sensitive information” in my comment that doesn’t mean the law can’t have it. Sure, it would, but that doesn't mean the definition in the law that ended up getting passed would be what you want it to be. Regulatory capture is a thing.

It’s a democracy.

Re: Teatotaller cafe owner wins Instagram case in court

#96

Post by pliftkl »

bomewish wrote: post #69

I don’t get this. There was no actual punishment for Facebook — so what will make them change their behaviour? Secondly, how can the lawyers just LIE and say he deleted his account when the company itself must have records of that. If they didn’t have the logs to prove it then they couldn’t have known he deleted it. If they did have logs they could have proven it. So they were lying. Why shouldn’t that be punished wi…

Well, the punishment for Facebook is twofold: (A) they probably spent 10's of thousands on fighting this in court, and (B) it sets precedent that they are liable for this sort of thing. If they start getting sued regularly in jurisdictions all over the country, then the "pay expensive lawyers a lot a few times" vs "pay some humans to look at complaints many times" may start to come out in the consumer's favor.

Re: Teatotaller cafe owner wins Instagram case in court

#97

Post by pdonis »

strogonoff wrote: post #94
pdonis wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it’s made illegal to profit from users through such indirect means, then there would be no choice for companies but to require users to be paying customers. Yes, there would. I already addressed this. Plenty of apps have a free tier (which means those users are not paying customers) but don't sell user information to third parties. There is no reason to outlaw those apps, and your proposal wouldn't. > The core i…

> There is no reason to outlaw those apps, and your proposal wouldn't. It’s not about outlawing any app or service, free tier or not. It’s about making a business model illegal because it is anti-competition and anti-free-market.

> It’s not about outlawing any app or service, free tier or not.

I agree that your more recent proposal isn't, but your original proposal was--your original proposal was to legally require all users to be paying customers. You have now changed that to only legally require that user information not be sold for profit to third parties. I am simply emphasizing the difference (a very important one, IMO) between those two proposals.

> It’s about making a business model illegal

I'm not sure I would dignify "selling user information to third parties for profit" with the term "business model". Especially since, as you have already pointed out, there is already a context in which it is illegal (phone call information).

Re: Teatotaller cafe owner wins Instagram case in court

#98

Post by pdonis »

strogonoff wrote: post #95
pdonis wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I didn’t provide the definition for “sensitive information” in my comment that doesn’t mean the law can’t have it. Sure, it would, but that doesn't mean the definition in the law that ended up getting passed would be what you want it to be. Regulatory capture is a thing.

It’s a democracy.

> It’s a democracy.

Nominally, yes, but most of the actual laws we have on the books are regulations written by unelected bureaucrats, not statutes passed by elected representatives. And even the latter serve special interests far more often than they serve the general interests of the people and the country.

Re: Teatotaller cafe owner wins Instagram case in court

#99

Post by strogonoff »

pdonis wrote: post #97
strogonoff wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no reason to outlaw those apps, and your proposal wouldn't. It’s not about outlawing any app or service, free tier or not. It’s about making a business model illegal because it is anti-competition and anti-free-market.

> It’s not about outlawing any app or service, free tier or not. I agree that your more recent proposal isn't, but your original proposal was--your original proposal was to legally require all users to be paying customers. You have now changed that to only legally require that user information not be sold for profit to third parties. I am simply emphasizing the difference (a very important one, IMO) between those two…

> You have now changed that to only legally require that user information not be sold for profit to third parties

TL;DR it’s about illegalizing a business model that is based on users who are not paying customers. It’s not about forbidding any specific app or service. That’s the difference. The rest is nitpicking.

How you illegalize that model is another question. Forbidding double-sided market may be a good way of doing it. As long as it leaves honest market-compatible business model the only option.

> I'm not sure I would dignify "selling user information to third parties for profit" with the term "business model"

It is nearly a business model of ad-based social media.

Anyway, it is not where the problem is. I have said many times, the point is illegalizing the double-sided market of ad-driven social media where millions of users are not paying customers and there is no competition as a result.

Forbidding the sale of user data would be a completely natural next step, but that’s orthogonal. Even if it is legal, when there is competition you can just switch to another provider if you are unhappy that your data is being sold.

We are not adding anything by rehashing the same thing over and over in this conversation.

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