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GM to Shut Down Ultra Cruise

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Re: GM to Shut Down Ultra Cruise

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's based on public comments about the per-mile cost of Cruise and Waymo, and the fact that Waymo is currently operating in only a tiny number of areas. Expansion greatly dilutes the fixed costs, and iterating on the hardware will drive down the marginal/capital costs. Amazon made no profit for many, many years, but that's because they were re-investing all their revenue. No one doubted that they could have turned a…

>Expansion greatly dilutes the fixed costs Where is the actual evidence of this, though? I'm not trying to be snide -- genuinely curious. Waymo is expanding -- their service areas (and operating times) have expanded in SF and Phoenix. There's a waitlist in LA and Austin. Yet Waymo's financials are still buried in Alphabet's "Other Bets" line, which lost $1.2 billion in Q3 2023. You think Google, which has been catchi…

Waymo generally seem to be extremely cautious: they have invested the most effort into the safety design of their systems and they don't shout very loudly for being the leader of the pack. I think this extends to their expansion as well: autonomous car companies are only one or two serious incidents away from severe backlash (see Cruise), and the more you operate the more likely it is that one occurs. Expanding slowly and dealing with each expansion of near-miss edge cases as you do so is a rational strategy in that case, even if you have already beaten human drivers.

(Also Google is bad at full commitment, and I don't know how much that extends to Alphabet, but they as a company seem pathologically incapable of putting even a majority of their weight behind anything, which is a significant source of failures for them)

Re: GM to Shut Down Ultra Cruise

#92
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about machine learning is that it can fail very suddenly, in a very unhuman way. So even if self driving works most of the time, it takes a lot of work to address weird edge cases even the most inebriated human would not mess up, that other drivers/pedestrians would not anticipate.

Nah, it's failure mode is to slow down and pull over. It would be amazing if drunk humans did the same.

Or randomly and suddenly change lanes or brake, or both, and you’d better be ready for that every second of your drive.

Re: GM to Shut Down Ultra Cruise

#93
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Autonomous systems need to be held to a higher bar Why? Won't this lead to a lot of needless deaths at the hands of human drivers while we wait for driverless cars to improve? Why not roll them out once they are safer than human drivers?

Well think about it this way: I'm a driver, but I'm a safer than average driver. So why would I want a system that's better than "average" where average includes drunk people, speeders, new/bad drivers, driving in ice, etc. I don't think it should be illegal to use a system that's actually better than average (which is 1 accident every 18 years), but many drivers might not want to. Also when some company's financial…

I’ve experienced both learning to drive in the United Kingdom, and later, in the United States (you have to test again if you immigrate). In summarizing both experiences I’m trying hard to avoid being too biased.

In the UK, almost everyone learned (and learns) using a manual/stick shift vehicle, and if you learn and test in an automatic gearbox, your license is limited and you legally can’t drive manual. Hill starts and clutch control can be much fun! Lessons and the test involved difficult city situations ranging from extremely narrow streets, through 7-lane roundabouts, country roads both single-track and unrestricted (so 60mph speed limit, but not necessarily safe to drive that quickly - good judgement is required). You must pass a theory and hazard perception exercise, and the testing is government-administered.

In the US it seems almost everyone learns in an automatic vehicle, your license then lets you drive stick with no restriction. At least near cities, the roads you learn and test on are seemingly not 2” wider than your vehicle (measured at the mirrors), the situations are comparatively simple as well. There’s no hazard perception test. In my state, the test is administered by the instructor and not an impartial/neutral party.

I haven’t gone looking for large datasets to support this but it feels like the “I just passed my test” driver competence is going to be different.

I would be extremely happy to buy and trust a system like Ultra Cruise if it could navigate UK roads and city situations autonomously with less accidents/incidents than drivers at the 75th percentile in those environment, meaning with widespread adoption the system would raise the bar, and improve median safety properties of being a driver/participant on the roads. However, I would guess had they not cancelled it, being acceptably good for US driving conditions / better than the average US driver really just means you’ve built a system which can work in the US but absolutely won’t work in London, Paris, Berlin or anywhere else?

Re: GM to Shut Down Ultra Cruise

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's based on public comments about the per-mile cost of Cruise and Waymo, and the fact that Waymo is currently operating in only a tiny number of areas. Expansion greatly dilutes the fixed costs, and iterating on the hardware will drive down the marginal/capital costs. Amazon made no profit for many, many years, but that's because they were re-investing all their revenue. No one doubted that they could have turned a…

>Expansion greatly dilutes the fixed costs Where is the actual evidence of this, though? I'm not trying to be snide -- genuinely curious. Waymo is expanding -- their service areas (and operating times) have expanded in SF and Phoenix. There's a waitlist in LA and Austin. Yet Waymo's financials are still buried in Alphabet's "Other Bets" line, which lost $1.2 billion in Q3 2023. You think Google, which has been catchi…

>> Expansion greatly dilutes the fixed costs

> Where is the actual evidence of this, though? I'm not trying to be snide -- genuinely curious.

That claim was just based off how all businesses work. All the infrastructure, management, training, etc., that scale sublinearly with volume are diluted at large volume.

> Yet Waymo's financials are still buried in Alphabet's "Other Bets" line, which lost $1.2 billion in Q3 2023...

As I said, I definitely think Waymo is losing money overall right now, even in a particular regime.

> Why not blitzscale this thing to all markets and disclose the numbers to investors and send the stock to the moon?

They are in fact expanding rapidly. But this can't be scaled as fast as a software/internet company. They literally have to manufacture custom cars and, crucially, map the region in detail. Remember that Tesla's meteoric rise was ~70% growth per year. For years Waymo was only offering service to the general public in Phoenix. They opened in San Francisco in late 2022, and then in LA in mid 2023.

Also, Waymo (~$30B in 2020) is still an tiny part of Alphabet stock (>$1T), who owns a controlling interest. They have no reason to pump the stock because they have no shortage of capital.

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