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Modeless Vim

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Re: Modeless Vim

#91

Post by viraptor »

ilaksh wrote: post #64

I currently use vim every day. I have been trying to learn vim off and on for about 30 years. vi and vim have modes because they were created in an era where computing and terminal capabilities were very limited and even when the terminals could support interactive editing, it wasn't expected. They had very low expectations. They were used to things like 'ed'. The religious beliefs that programmers have about vim are…

> vi and vim have modes because they were created in an era where computing and terminal capabilities were very limited

vim was released in 1991. Same year linux kernel started and Apple PowerBook came out. Limited terminal capabilities is not the reason vim is modal.

Re: Modeless Vim

#92

Post by viraptor »

jdeisenberg wrote: post #84
bpshaver wrote: post #47

What's wrong with "modal"? I don't think "modeful" is a word.

See http://worrydream.com/refs/Tesler%20-%20A%20Personal%20Histo... (specifically the sidebar “How Modes Degrade Usability”) There’s also a sidebar “Objections to Modeless Editing and Cut/Copy-Paste”

I think you misread/misunderstood OP.

Re: Modeless Vim

#94

Post by anticodon »

alberth wrote: post #43

IBM CUA I’ve always wondered how different Unix/Linux would be today if decades ago a Common User Access (standardized menu system like FILE | EDIT | etc) had been defined for TUI apps (like how it was for Windows & Mac OS). Imagine VI & EMacs having the same key bindings due to standards. https://sqlite.org/hctree/doc/hctree/doc/hctree/index.html#s...

Power of Vi is that its keybindings are way more ergonomical compared to IBM CUA. If you're a touch typist.

It doesn't make sense to change Vi/Vim/NeoVim keybindings because they're so convenient, composable and easy to remember.

Re: Modeless Vim

#95

Post by stevebmark »

I've always disliked that Bram calls Vim a "modal" editor. All this means is your keyboard and mouse actions do different things based on what "mode" of the editor you're in. All editors are "modal" editors. In VSCode for example, if you've focused the search box, pressing up loads the previous search, compared to if you've focused the code area, pressing up goes up a line.

Vim purports to be more efficient than other editors because it's a modal editor, but that's nonsense.

Re: Modeless Vim

#96

Post by anticodon »

ilaksh wrote: post #77
a-dub wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> vi and vim have modes becaus they were created in an era where computing and terminal capabilities were very limited. that's the whole point. it was designed for limited terminals and high latency, very slow serial links. that means when you learn it and all of its shortcuts and you have a fast and modern terminal, you are able to edit at ludicrous speed. it's like training at altitude or running with weight belts…

I just don't believe that the average vim users edits significantly faster than non vim users. I mean, maybe 5% faster. Sure. Maybe. But at what price? _At what price, I ask you??_

I don't know how faster I became at editing text after switching to vim. But it definitely has a different feeling: the text just flows from the fingers. Your mind is never interrupted to remember some shortcut e.g. to select text inside the brackets or inside the quotes. Anything you want to do with text happens effortlessly with the speed of thought.

Definitely worth it.

Re: Modeless Vim

#97

Post by FiskFisk33 »

redundantly wrote: post #65
reactordev wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about where you’re from but where I’m from, you don’t make pumpkin pie from a can. You make it with pumpkin purée. From scratch. Get out of here with your non-pumpkin pumpkin pie propaganda. Some pumpkin, blended into a paste, some brown sugar, an egg or two, some heavy cream and some cinnamon and crushed cloves and you have your pie filling.

You can make it with homemade butternut squash puree too, and it will taste better because of its sweetness. Give it a try sometime.

I've tried it and my experience is the exact opposite. I have good results with for example "Crown Prince" variety pumpkins, which I find far sweeter and tastier than butternut.

Re: Modeless Vim

#98

Post by schainks »

stevebmark wrote: post #95

I've always disliked that Bram calls Vim a "modal" editor. All this means is your keyboard and mouse actions do different things based on what "mode" of the editor you're in. All editors are "modal" editors. In VSCode for example, if you've focused the search box, pressing up loads the previous search, compared to if you've focused the code area, pressing up goes up a line. Vim purports to be more efficient than othe…

Not all modal editors are created equal?

Once fluent in vim, I could literally get more done in the same amount of time, but YMMV.

Re: Modeless Vim

#99

Post by kagevf »

emacs has CUA available and another comment mentioned there's an "easyvim". My point being that those editors already support those features.

Re: Modeless Vim

#100

Post by wruza »

ilaksh wrote: post #77
a-dub wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> vi and vim have modes becaus they were created in an era where computing and terminal capabilities were very limited. that's the whole point. it was designed for limited terminals and high latency, very slow serial links. that means when you learn it and all of its shortcuts and you have a fast and modern terminal, you are able to edit at ludicrous speed. it's like training at altitude or running with weight belts…

I just don't believe that the average vim users edits significantly faster than non vim users. I mean, maybe 5% faster. Sure. Maybe. But at what price? _At what price, I ask you??_

For me it’s somewhat slower at the price of freeing my mind from “ctrl-shift-left-wait-wait-oops-right-right”-like things. I believe that faster typing in vim is a myth supported by our adepts, who are more zealous than is reasonable.
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