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Everyone's getting ghosted, the new normal in tech recruiting

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Re: Everyone's getting ghosted, the new normal in tech recruiting

#91

Post by SoftTalker »

sokoloff wrote: post #32
hx8 wrote: post #17

I think this would matter more to me if the feedback was ever useful. The feedback from these "no" is more cliche and less useful than a Dear John letter. All I ever hear are "another more qualified candidate", or rarely the slightly more useful "culture fit".

Having been in industry 30 years, it’s only about 15% of the time that I have any specific constructive feedback that’s worth sharing. “When you’re talking about problem X, first make sure you understand the problem because it seemed like you jumped straight into a solution that missed a key element of the question.” Or something similarly specific. In most cases, it’s more “you did okay, but someone else did better…

And often it boils down to an intangible "we felt a better vibe with candidate B" and that's probably something they will never come out and say.

My reaction to the feedback he got when he finally jogged someone into responding was like yours. It was the typical cliche rejection letter. Maybe a bit more personal than some. I'm sure that the "wires got crossed" and the "email never made it to your inbox" are just a smokescreen for "we hired someone else and didn't bother to let you know."

Re: Everyone's getting ghosted, the new normal in tech recruiting

#92

Post by SoftTalker »

fragmede wrote: post #61
prettyStandard wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. A bit besides the point, but I'm dating a recruiter that has worked in a few industries, but not tech. She says, as a rule, she doesn't provide feedback. People just don't listen or accept it, they just use it as an opportunity to argue. So what's the point?

Detailed "here's why you suck" feedback, sure, but just a "no" would be more professional than this emotionally immature "ghosting" thing.

This isn't personal on their part. It might be a bit rude but if you're going into the corporate world, get used to that. Just move on, if you're sitting there stewing about getting "ghosted", you can be sure they are not. I don't think it would bother me any more than getting a templated, cliche rejection letter.

Re: Everyone's getting ghosted, the new normal in tech recruiting

#93

Post by mattkrause »

greatpostman wrote: post #12
Beefin wrote: post #5

as a founder recruiting engineers of various skillsets/expertise i simply don't have the bandwidth to respond to every non-qualified candidate.

Yup. It’s too much work, literally. Especially when 20% of the resumes you get end up being fake

Really?

While I’d love personalized feedback, all I really want is for your Applicant Tracking System to fire off a short email from noreply@company.com, bcc’ing everyone other than the person getting an offer.

   Subject: Your Application to $company

   I regret to inform you that $position at $company has been filled by another candidate. We appreciate your interest in working with us.
 
   [Add other platitudes, info about reapplying or whether you’ll be considered for other jobs here…if you want].
   —- $Name or HR department
If you’re too pressed for time to do that…maybe you should be hiring someone who can.

Re: Everyone's getting ghosted, the new normal in tech recruiting

#94

Post by x0x0 »

tracerbulletx wrote: post #49
frognumber wrote: post #20

One of my top lessons I've learned doing successful startups: 1. Recruiting is the #1 job of any startup CEO, and the #1 determiner of corporate success. 2. Up market, down market, side market, it doesn't matter: You will get better employees if you treat candidates with respect and you will be more competitive. 3. It's a lot of work for the 95% of clowns out there you interview, and there's a push towards automated…

You'd think if professional sports could figure out how important this is we could too, but for some reason there's a tendency to give it lip service then put absolutely no effort into doing a good job. Scouting and screenings are done by people that companies treat like dirt, we incentivize them only for body count, interviews are done by low experience employees and employees who don't even like interviewing. We do…

> We don't know how to identify and cultivate talent in this industry yet, it's clearly dysfunctional and deprioritized.

Do you even watch professional sports? Professional sports is not great at identifying or cultivating or recruiting, and the incentives there are far simpler, and the performance metrics generally easier.

Take the NBA. A handful of teams are famous for cultivating talent, but mostly because the modal nba team is terrible at it.

Even the best regularly completely mess up. The team of folks that put together the Warriors -- a franchise that dominated the nba for a decade -- completely blew a #2 draft pick, who is close to being out of the league. They gave Jordan Poole a huge contract and then were forced to trade him because he decided to stop playing defense and start taking terrible shots. He's busy being a tank commander in Washington.

Hell, Michael Jordan -- my take for the greatest of all time, and, at worst, the 3rd best basketball player ever -- famously didn't go #1, and that's with one of the best college coaches of all time (Bobby Knight) telling anyone who would listen that he was an extraordinary basketball player. Hakeem went first (ok, that's not a disaster) and a complete bust went second (complete disaster).

Lots of GMs struggle with really basic roster construction issues (Russel Westbrook on the Lakers). etc.

iirc, only 4 of 30 coaches (Pop, Spo, Steve Kerr, Malone) have held their jobs for more than 4 years.

edit: It's very common for top-25 all time players to not be drafted first, or often, even all that high. Steph Curry, with a decent shot at top 10 all time: #7. Jokic: 41st (!!! -- essentially every team passed on him). Giannis: 15th. Luka: 3rd, after winning euroleague mvp at 18 (yes, I'd confident he'll end top 25). etc.

Re: Everyone's getting ghosted, the new normal in tech recruiting

#95

Post by araes »

piloto_ciego wrote: post #38
CM30 wrote: post #19

The new normal? This has been the case for years for almost all job applications. Maybe if you're lucky and the company has put you through like 4 rounds of interviews you might get feedback, but the general rule seems to be that useful feedback for an interview is the exception rather than the norm. And heck, even that isn't something you can rely on. I've had a fair few interviews get about 80% of the way through t…

When I was a pilot just starting out, in 2007 I’d see a human response maybe 1/100 applications. It’s pretty gross out there for people other than tech employees. What’s pretty funny is now that I’m changing into this field it seems to be adjusting to treat people like crap. So, I guess you’re welcome guys and gals - it’s my fault.

It was not that great in tech. I interviewed during the same time in tech and got limited responses even after what appeared to be positive interviews. There wasn't quite as much of "we completely do not respond", yet it still existed. Mostly a vacuum of rejections with no context. Very little other than "no" in most cases.

At least in my case though, it just got to "putting in 2-3 customized applications a day, can't really stop to worry about the type of response, unless its helpful. No's a no, next application."

Plus, 2007 was the era where Google's puzzles and homework assignments were what everybody was fighting about. Which company's got the craziest hiring homework and weirdest math puzzles that have almost nothing to do with your job?

Re: Everyone's getting ghosted, the new normal in tech recruiting

#96

Post by ivan_gammel »

frognumber wrote: post #20

One of my top lessons I've learned doing successful startups: 1. Recruiting is the #1 job of any startup CEO, and the #1 determiner of corporate success. 2. Up market, down market, side market, it doesn't matter: You will get better employees if you treat candidates with respect and you will be more competitive. 3. It's a lot of work for the 95% of clowns out there you interview, and there's a push towards automated…

>It's a lot of work for the 95% of clowns out there you interview, and there's a push towards automated process, but it will hurt your business.

If 20 candidates enter your funnel before you hire one in a screening-technical-offer flow, that’s maybe 5-6 hours per week spent on recruiting in 1 month. You can even send a few personalized rejections to worthy but unfit applicants, sending 80% of applications to trash. The effort is noticeable, but it is not a lot of work with good automation, planning and interview design.

Re: Everyone's getting ghosted, the new normal in tech recruiting

#97

Post by TheChaplain »

zero-sharp wrote: post #66

Here's a relevant experience. I applied for a job a few days ago. The recruiter reached out to me through email to schedule a phone call and I scheduled a time through her online calendar. To give you some more context in terms of timing: she emailed me in the morning and I responded in the afternoon. Less than 24 hours after she reached out to me, the job ad on the company page is taken down and now says the positio…

My guess, you were not fast enough? Imagining myself as a recruiter, I would probably be working with a fair number of leads at the same time. Any of those who are a good fit and quick to respond would get sent to HR.

My recent job I landed because I was pushy, I called the recruiter by phone and sold them on me, got the contact for the company manager, called them too and got hired. I got decent technical skills, but talking to people is what gave results.

Just one thing, "talk the talk, walk the walk" is real. Bullsh*ting will put you in a bind sooner or later.

Re: Everyone's getting ghosted, the new normal in tech recruiting

#98

Post by datadrivenangel »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #74
frognumber wrote: post #20

One of my top lessons I've learned doing successful startups: 1. Recruiting is the #1 job of any startup CEO, and the #1 determiner of corporate success. 2. Up market, down market, side market, it doesn't matter: You will get better employees if you treat candidates with respect and you will be more competitive. 3. It's a lot of work for the 95% of clowns out there you interview, and there's a push towards automated…

Almost every place I’ve worked (early at startups later at megacorps) there were never enough recruiting resources. So eventually I just got my own recruiter account on LinkedIn and started using my knowledge of the industry and state of hiring to make my own search queries and reached out directly. I had an incredible conversion rate - the senior person actually hiring saying “hey you look like you could fit in here…

If you want something done right you often have to do it yourself.

Especially when the communication required to delegate it well is more work than just doing it.

Re: Everyone's getting ghosted, the new normal in tech recruiting

#99

Post by momocowcow »

I’ve been ghosted a few times over the years. It stung at first but now that I have grey hair, I no longer take it personally. I actually started ghosting job offers and invitation to continue to the next phase of the interview process. If they’re really interested, they’ll find an alternate way to contact me.

Re: Everyone's getting ghosted, the new normal in tech recruiting

#100

Post by 1920musicman »

tayo42 wrote: post #42
frognumber wrote: post #20

One of my top lessons I've learned doing successful startups: 1. Recruiting is the #1 job of any startup CEO, and the #1 determiner of corporate success. 2. Up market, down market, side market, it doesn't matter: You will get better employees if you treat candidates with respect and you will be more competitive. 3. It's a lot of work for the 95% of clowns out there you interview, and there's a push towards automated…

> is one of the lowest value-add tasks you can bring on, from a purely selfish / incentive structures perspective. At one place I worked, interviewing was one of the check marks you could participate in for promotions.

But that's exactly what it is then: a check mark. I can interview dozens of candidates, and then add a total count to my self review. There is no incentive to do a good job (how would that even be evaluated?..).
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