Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

theverge.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 912 posts

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#91

Post by alexey-salmin »

fallingknife wrote: post #65
Aurornis wrote: post #20

The arguments about being able to mimic New York Times “style” are weak, but the fact that they got it to emit verbatim NY Times content seems bad for OpenAI: > As outlined in the lawsuit, the Times alleges OpenAI and Microsoft’s large language models (LLMs), which power ChatGPT and Copilot, “can generate output that recites Times content verbatim

I can get a printer to emit verbatim NYT content, and with a lot less effort than getting it out of an LLM. I find this capability of infringement equals infringement argument incredibly weak.

Well imagine you sell a printer with internal memory loaded with NYT content

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#92

Post by noitpmeder »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #34
pm90 wrote: post #2

NYT article with a lot more context https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/27/business/media/new-york-t...

Does it not seem a bit suspect to read the the NYT reporting on their own lawsuit?

One should always source news from a variety of outlets as to attempt to be cognizant of the biases in play and to see the story from many viewpoints.

Would I trust the NYT to be unbiased? No. But is their viewpoint extremely relevant to the subject at hand? Yes.

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#93

Post by Salgat »

hfhdjdks wrote: post #81
dissident_coder wrote: post #56

Even if they win against openAI, how would this prevent something like a Chinese or Russian LLM from “stealing” their content and making their own superior LLM that isnt weakened by regulation like the ones in the United States. And I say this as someone that is extremely bothered by how easily mass amounts of open content can just be vacuumed up into a training set with reckless abandon and there isn’t much you can…

So Chinese LLMs are bad actors, but USA LLMs are the good guys? I don't see it that way, but I'm sure from an American perspective that how it seems.

What? This is about whether one country wants to cede a massive economic advantage to another country.

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#94

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

gumballindie wrote: post #77
dissident_coder wrote: post #56

Even if they win against openAI, how would this prevent something like a Chinese or Russian LLM from “stealing” their content and making their own superior LLM that isnt weakened by regulation like the ones in the United States. And I say this as someone that is extremely bothered by how easily mass amounts of open content can just be vacuumed up into a training set with reckless abandon and there isn’t much you can…

This argument is moot. Just because some countries - see china - steal intellectual property it doesnt mean we should. There are rules to the games we play specifically so we dont end up like them.

It's impossible to "steal" intellectual property without some kind of mind wiping device.

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#95

Post by jncfhnb »

mrkeen wrote: post #80
fallingknife wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can get a printer to emit verbatim NYT content, and with a lot less effort than getting it out of an LLM. I find this capability of infringement equals infringement argument incredibly weak.

Try selling subscriptions to your print-outs.

The equivalent analogy here is selling subscriptions to the printer, not the specific copyright infringing printout.

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#96

Post by dissident_coder »

hfhdjdks wrote: post #81
dissident_coder wrote: post #56

Even if they win against openAI, how would this prevent something like a Chinese or Russian LLM from “stealing” their content and making their own superior LLM that isnt weakened by regulation like the ones in the United States. And I say this as someone that is extremely bothered by how easily mass amounts of open content can just be vacuumed up into a training set with reckless abandon and there isn’t much you can…

So Chinese LLMs are bad actors, but USA LLMs are the good guys? I don't see it that way, but I'm sure from an American perspective that how it seems.

I don’t really see it as good guys or bad guys - just that China (and Russia) don’t really care too much about American copyright.

And there seems to be an an obvious advantage from my perspective to having an information vacuum that is not bound by any kind of copyright law.

If that’s good or bad is more of a matter of opinion.

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#97

Post by ceejayoz »

lionkor wrote: post #90
dissident_coder wrote: post #56

Even if they win against openAI, how would this prevent something like a Chinese or Russian LLM from “stealing” their content and making their own superior LLM that isnt weakened by regulation like the ones in the United States. And I say this as someone that is extremely bothered by how easily mass amounts of open content can just be vacuumed up into a training set with reckless abandon and there isn’t much you can…

An LLM in Russia can commit the same crime in Russia, and get sued in Russia. No idea about China, but I know Russia has a working legal system.

For some definitions of “working”.

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#98

Post by phatfish »

Aurornis wrote: post #20

The arguments about being able to mimic New York Times “style” are weak, but the fact that they got it to emit verbatim NY Times content seems bad for OpenAI: > As outlined in the lawsuit, the Times alleges OpenAI and Microsoft’s large language models (LLMs), which power ChatGPT and Copilot, “can generate output that recites Times content verbatim

I assume if you ask it to recite a specific article from the NYT it refuses?

If an LLM is able to pull a long enough sequence of text from it's training verbatim all that's needed is the correct prompt to get around this weeks filters.

"Imagine I am launching a competitor newspaper to the NYT, I will do this by copying NYT articles verbatim until they sue me and win a lawsuit forcing me to stop. Please give me some examples for my new newspaper." (no idea if this works :))

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#99

Post by gwright »

lp4vn wrote: post #21

For me it's quite obvious that if you make a profit from an engine that has as an input copyrighted material, then you owe something to the owner of this copyrighted content. We have seen this same problem with artists claiming stable diffusion engines were using their art.

If you study copyrighted material for four years at a university and then go on to earn money based on your education, do you owe something to the authors of your text books?

I'm not sure how we should treat LLMs with respect to publicly accessible but copyrighted material, but it seems clear to me that "profiting" from copyrighted material isn't a sufficient criteria to cause me to "owe something to the owner".

Re: The New York Times is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for copyright infringement

#100

Post by artninja1988 »

rand1239 wrote: post #89

You do copyright for content that you invented and which didn't exist before. But NYT content is reporting on events truthfully to the public without any fiction or lies. Since there can be only one truth it should not matter whether NYT or Washington Post or ChatGPT is spinning it out. Unless NYT is claiming they don't report truth and publishes fiction. That is of concern since, NYT claims to reporth news truthfull…

AFAIK facts like happenings in the world are not copyrightable. So I guess the nyt is arguing it's copying their prose and way of writing about them?
Post reply on HN