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US ban on some Apple Watch sales now in effect

arstechnica.com

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Re: US ban on some Apple Watch sales now in effect

#91

Post by jocaal »

tensor wrote: post #76
CogitoCogito wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The banning of these Apple products _does_ promote cooperation. After all, it is actively punishing Apple's lack of cooperation.

Paying arbitrary fees to someone who filed paperwork first does not promote any sort of "cooperation", unless your idea of cooperation is one person paying money and one collecting it and giving nothing in return.

> ...giving nothing in return

Patent law is there, because creating original work is costly and can take years in engineering and scientific fields. The patents are there to give a time-window for the people who made the investments to make their money back and get some return on their investment.

Re: US ban on some Apple Watch sales now in effect

#92

Post by AlbertCory »

jrockway wrote: post #83
solardev wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we still manufacture electronics here, even if we wanted to? I thought all the expertise and machinery was outsourced a long time ago?

We can manufacture electronics here, though the exact details of the Apple Watch are probably not easy to accommodate. (The manufacturing engineers knew it would be built in China, so they chose parts and processes that are mature there. For example, if the requirement was for all the parts to be made in the US, then it would probably use an Intel chip, since those are made in the US. It probably wouldn't get 2 days…

Actually, there's no need to be all US-only. It's only the finished article that can't be imported.

Re: US ban on some Apple Watch sales now in effect

#93

Post by ajross »

jhugo wrote: post #87
ajross wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As if it's impossible to know who to hire from LinkedIn, patents, knowledge of the field, etc. That's misunderstanding the argument: it's not "They poached our employees and that isn't fair!", it's "Clearly our technology was legitimate and innovative, they had to poach our employees to duplicate it!" It's an argument toward the standing of the patent(s?), not a complaint of unfair trade practices.

> That's misunderstanding the argument: it's not "They poached our employees and that isn't fair!", it's "Clearly our technology was legitimate and innovative, they had to poach our employees to duplicate it!" This seems a pretty thin argument. Hiring some people who already successfully did it has a higher chance of success than hiring randos, even if they have to do a clean-room re-implementation. So of course you'…

> This seems a pretty thin argument. Hiring some people who already successfully did it has a higher chance of success than hiring randos, even if they have to do a clean-room re-implementation.

That's... literally the argument. If the patent was obvious to a practitioner in the field, you wouldn't need to hire experts. And not just any experts, experts from the company that holds the patent in question!

Honestly this part of the argument seems pretty sound to me. Whether patents should have this kind of power on the whole is I think an excellent question. But given the system we have, as I see it Apple is screwed here. They're going to end up cutting a very big check to get out of this.

Re: US ban on some Apple Watch sales now in effect

#94

Post by AlbertCory »

solardev wrote: post #79
AlbertCory wrote: post #57

What no one's mentioned here is: this is an International Trade Commission ruling, not a US court or PTO ruling. So Apple cannot import those watches. They could probably build them in the US (now there's a thought), and injunctions against domestic products are possible but very unusual. Usually there are damages, not injunctions.

Can we still manufacture electronics here, even if we wanted to? I thought all the expertise and machinery was outsourced a long time ago?

That was why I had the parenthetical there.

Yeah, it would cost them a boatload and introduce delays. Boo hoo, I feel so bad for them. /s

Re: US ban on some Apple Watch sales now in effect

#95

Post by sokoloff »

mthoms wrote: post #78
sokoloff wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That not incongruent with a strategy to wait out a patent holder and thereby be known as a difficult target. Apple’s under no obligation to offer a settlement.

>That not incongruent with a strategy to wait out a patent holder and thereby be known as a difficult target. For sure. But it does counter the suggestion you made that Massimo may have been "holding out" for more money. >Apple’s under no obligation to offer a settlement. Agreed. I never suggested otherwise.

Ah. In my mind “holding out” does not require a settlement offer to be proposed by the counterparty.

If you ask the price to buy my 2005 Honda CRV (license my patent) and I tell you $250K ($250M/yr), many would think I was holding out even if you (Apple) correctly roll your eyes and don’t engage.

Re: US ban on some Apple Watch sales now in effect

#96

Post by dang »

Related:

Apple appeals US ban on Apple Watch - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38773177 - Dec 2023 (83 comments)

Apple is officially no longer selling the newest Apple Watch in America - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38771436 - Dec 2023 (108 comments)

Apple to Halt Watch Sales as It Prepares to Comply with U.S. Import Ban - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38684156 - Dec 2023 (14 comments)

Apple to halt Apple Watch Series 9 and Ultra 2 sales in the US this week - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38682631 - Dec 2023 (482 comments)

Apple Watch violates patents held by Orange Co. tech company, ITC finds - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38059668 - Oct 2023 (104 comments)

Apple Faces Potential Watch Import Ban After Federal Trade Ruling - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38034964 - Oct 2023 (46 comments)

Re: US ban on some Apple Watch sales now in effect

#97

Post by manderley »

AlbertCory wrote: post #57

What no one's mentioned here is: this is an International Trade Commission ruling, not a US court or PTO ruling. So Apple cannot import those watches. They could probably build them in the US (now there's a thought), and injunctions against domestic products are possible but very unusual. Usually there are damages, not injunctions.

But that wouldn't vanish the patent issue?

Re: US ban on some Apple Watch sales now in effect

#98

Post by midtake »

jusonchan81 wrote: post #48

Is there a chance Apple will pay Masimo for the technology and resume sales? I am curious why that didn’t happen. If this is an exec’s decision and this leads to bigger losses than paying Masimo, I wonder what would happen the people involved in the decisions.

Is it worth the long term increase in cost if Apple pays Masimo? It's not a one off where you just pay up to continue operations. Pay one and many more will line up. I am sure Apple's analysts already have a number for how much profit they'd slough off if they pay off Masimo and many more follow.

Re: US ban on some Apple Watch sales now in effect

#99

Post by contingencies »

throwup238 wrote: post #90
solardev wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we still manufacture electronics here, even if we wanted to? I thought all the expertise and machinery was outsourced a long time ago?

> Can we still manufacture electronics here, even if we wanted to? I thought all the expertise and machinery was outsourced a long time ago? Yes. There's a bunch of industries that either can't or don't bother manufacturing in China. The majority of the military industrial complex and much of the biotech/medical equipment industry, among many others. The former for natsec reasons and the latter because even after 20…

Biotech/medtech is only a shitshow because it's typically small run. If the manufacturers actually committed resource they could achieve any outcome they desire. They are just passing the buck. (Source: Lived in Shenzhen for ages, had US friends managing the manufacturing of US medical devices, visited multiple times large factories producing biomed parts)

Re: US ban on some Apple Watch sales now in effect

#100

Post by jjcm »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #89

I've seen tons of articles/posts about this recently, but does anyone have any links to any good articles that describe the patent(s) in question, and what the arguments are about (a) whether this patent is truly novel (I've heard tons of "pulse oximetry is decades old" arguments, but nothing about the specifics of these patents) and (b) whether Apple is or isn't infringing on the specific details? I'm sure this kind…

I too would be curious. That said, it's worth noting here that Masimo[0] is an actual company that produces pulse oximetry devices, not a patent troll.

[0] https://www.masimo.com/

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