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Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

drewdevault.com

91–100 of 159 posts

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#91
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what he's actually misinterpreted are complaints that the Mk4 controller board isn't open source. Prusa has long bragged about their hardware being open source and they've made an about face on that over the last couple of years.

Are you talking about the xBuddy board? I haven't been able to find the repository on their github page. I took a look and found Adafruit reporting on it. If they're worried about cloning, I don't see how making it proprietary will prevent Prusa from being cloned.

Jo wrote an entire blogpost about it:

https://blog.prusa3d.com/the-state-of-open-source-in-3d-prin...

One of the big takeaways from this for me is that Jo doesn't really understand IP law. He talks about wanting a new license for open source hardware; the trouble with that is that a copyright license does not and cannot protect a hardware design. That's what patents do.

That's not a defense of current IP law, just a statement on the reality of what it is.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#92
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you talking about the xBuddy board? I haven't been able to find the repository on their github page. I took a look and found Adafruit reporting on it. If they're worried about cloning, I don't see how making it proprietary will prevent Prusa from being cloned.

Jo wrote an entire blogpost about it: https://blog.prusa3d.com/the-state-of-open-source-in-3d-prin... One of the big takeaways from this for me is that Jo doesn't really understand IP law. He talks about wanting a new license for open source hardware; the trouble with that is that a copyright license does not and cannot protect a hardware design. That's what patents do. That's not a defense of current IP law, just a…

Yeah. I read that blogpost. I don't think the hardware license protects him from Chinese cloners, scrupulous or unscrupulous. They're just very good at cloning and I don't think he has the funding or the legal resource to sue them into oblivion.

Going non-free is going to lose him a lot of goodwill, just as what happened to makerbot.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#93
post #56
post #46

I have a lot of respect for Armin, but it's pretty clear he doesn't really understand the specifics of what he's talking about here. > people are complaining (The MK4 firmware is not Open Source) the link here is to a reddit post ( https://www.reddit.com/r/prusa3d/comments/10g6fgv/prusa_givi... ) in which the complaint is not only not about the MK4's firmware, it's also not even about something not being open source.…

To provide some more commentary here. Prusa has not changed it's behaviour towards either PrusaSlicer or its printer firmwares in the time since Bambu has existed as a force in the 3D printing community, so Armin's claim that Bambu is making companies reconsider open source, is not at all substantiated. Furthermore, the Bambu A1 is clearly positioned against the Prusa Mini - they're priced the same, have the same gan…

> Armin's claim that Bambu is making companies reconsider open source, is not at all substantiated

I cannot say what is or is not making companies reconsider, but Prusa is on the record about their struggles: https://blog.prusa3d.com/the-state-of-open-source-in-3d-prin...

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#94
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing is, there really isn't much of a difference between an Ender 3 and a Mk4 that a typical consumer (that is, not an enthusiast) would understand as justifying the bigger price tag. I'm not sure what makes you feel so comfortable deciding that for everyone? Having vastly better components that are much less likely to fail is something I think anyone would find valuable. If you give an absolute beginner an MK…

>If you give an absolute beginner an MK4 and an Ender 3, they're going to use the MK4 every time. It's vastly less effort to get started and the QC of one vs the other isn't even a competition. The actual market isn't Ender 3 vs Mk4. It's extremely hard to argue that Prusa printers represent a good value in any market segment in a post-Bambu world. >What makes them "much, much better" ? Initial cost of ownership and…

> The actual market isn't Ender 3 vs Mk4.

Goalposts moved!

> It's extremely hard to argue that Prusa printers represent a good value in any market segment in a post-Bambu world.

I don't find it hard.

> produce better prints

Citation needed*

> faster

I've heard this is true, so let's roll with it!

>multiple high end printers that I've dumped $2k+ into.

You must mean high-end China, yeah? $2k doesn't sound like much when it comes to FDM high end.

> But I've also got an X1 for when I just want a part and don't want to think about it. It's an appliance. It just works. That has massive value for people where printing is a means to an end rather than a hobbyist journey.

Are you thinking that Prusa printers are a "hobbyist journey"? Because they're definitely an appliance. Not only that, they're an appliance that can be repaired with off-the-shelf parts for the most part.

> If you're a hobbyist that wants to tinker, there's nothing that justifies dropping 5x the cost of an E3 on a Mk4. $800 will go a long way toward making up any difference.

I totally agree (given the constraint.) No tinkering necessary on an MK4. Have you ever used one?

> Because they refuse to engineer their products for mass production. Which is, coincidentally, one of the reason why they're also failing to compete on price.

This is more eye-of-the-beholder stuff. You think this is bad. I think this is good. Makes the world go 'round.

While it does hinder them competing on price, it also grants them some flexibility to improve designs over time. Since the printer has printed parts, users can print the new/better designs if they want.

The thing I've noticed about Chinese-printer proponents is that they're hyper focused on price. Even when I say "Initial cost of ownership and what else?" you lead with "They're cheaper" Let's say that the prints are better, I think they do print faster and I'll take your word for it that they don't require any manual tuning by the user (just like Prusa.) What about repair? What about contributions to the 3d printing community? What about support (and I'm not talking about Prusa's chat/email)?

My first Prusa printer was an MK2. After its release, Prusa continued to iterate on that product and offered multiple upgrade kits over its lifetime at reasonable prices that brought compelling features. Do you think BL will do the same? Or will they instead want you to buy a whole new printer to get the latest whatever that they've lifted from the community?

I'm going to guess that you don't care. That's your right of course, but there are people who do care about e-waste and planned obsolescence and buying as few products made by slaves as possible. Those people aren't wrong just like you're not wrong. We just value different things.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#95

>Imagine a Prusa where it works out of the box, you can fire up a slicer in your browser which auto-connects to your printer and prints models from a Prusa-operated model repository, paying $10 for a premium model, $1 off the top goes to Prusa, with the same saved payment details which ensure that a fresh spool of Prusa filament arrives at your front door when it auto-detects that your printer is almost out. The prin…

It need not be predatory, nor need it be mandatory for users to take advantage of these features, nor need it be proprietary or non-free.

Agree. Glowforge decided to make it mandatory and I have noped out of their product.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#96
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing is, there really isn't much of a difference between an Ender 3 and a Mk4 that a typical consumer (that is, not an enthusiast) would understand as justifying the bigger price tag. I'm not sure what makes you feel so comfortable deciding that for everyone? Having vastly better components that are much less likely to fail is something I think anyone would find valuable. If you give an absolute beginner an MK…

>If you give an absolute beginner an MK4 and an Ender 3, they're going to use the MK4 every time. It's vastly less effort to get started and the QC of one vs the other isn't even a competition. The actual market isn't Ender 3 vs Mk4. It's extremely hard to argue that Prusa printers represent a good value in any market segment in a post-Bambu world. >What makes them "much, much better" ? Initial cost of ownership and…

I assume they want to keep their printers with 3d printed parts for the following reasons:

(1) Dog fooding their own printers (in mass production) so they're reliable;

(2) Making DIY, modifications and repairs easy on their printers;

(3) Ease of prototyping and making new products.

It seems that given a large production scale, (3) would not be so important. (1) seems very important, but maybe they could reduce the number of printed parts and still have "enough dogfooding"? As for (2), perhaps they could compromise on having injection molded parts that can be replaced (i.e. are interchangeable with) printed parts.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#97
post #25

> They have been struggling as of late, and came under criticism for making the firmware of their Mk4 printer non-free. One of the biggest reasons I didn't choose a Mk4 was precisely because they moved away from open source. If you're like me an values open source highly and is looking for a printer, the VORON printers are the way to go. They're DIY printers where you assemble them yourself, so they're not for you if…

https://github.com/prusa3d/Prusa-Firmware-Buddy

Not open source? Odd, as I just read it's source code. Are you referring to licensing, ability to modify and compile yourself, or some else?

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#98

I think it's a bit premature to say Prusa is floundering. If they were a VC funded startup with billions of debt needing to grow x% YoY to prevent a catastrophic implosion I would agree. Prusa seems reasonably self sufficient though and if they stop growing or shrink I wouldn't say they've failed. I think some people forget that businesses can still continue to exist, pay their employees well, and that's success. On…

I would be more concerned about Prusa dying as a business than making billions in profit.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#99
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again I have to ask if you've ever used a Prusa, no really this time? Prusa users use Prusaslicer, not Cura. Printables.com often hosts gcode files that require no slicing at all by end users. These points completely aside -- do you think 3d printer novices are going to last long without learning a slicer? Is that really your assertion? Also, is installing Cura a "nightmare" ? So much explosive language!

Yes, I have used a Prusa, but I have mostly used Cura with it. The bulk of my experience with Prusas started with finding one at the local hackerspace, firing up Cura and finding a profile for it, getting it to work and never questioning this procedure again. I used Prusaslicer once or twice, but nevertheless, I cut my teeth on Cura so I used the tool I knew. Not that the comment you're replying to alleges that most…

Non-technical users are going to install prusaslicer. I know, because that's what I did when I bought a prusa without knowing anything. It's the first one mentioned in the user manual.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I thought they had some good points up until this and immediately thought “I would RUN from a company that did this.” Also do people REALLY pay for models, let alone $10? I think I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve paid for a model to 3d print. Much easier to find an existing one, hack one, or just make my own.

The icing on the cake is when he says that Chinese competitors implemented all this web-based stuff. So the big idea for Prusa to compete was to provide services that Chinese competitors can and did provide. I think if you're going to take to the internet to stick to boot into a company you need to do better than this embarrassing drivel.

In other news, how that silly Linus Torvalds is floundering while Google makes bank.
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