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3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

minnesotareformer.com

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Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#91

Post by makapuf »

mcny wrote: post #75
nier wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, the death penalty contains traces of mercy and life-long incarceration does not. You take away someone’s freedom for the rest of their life instead of putting them out of their misery.

I agree with you on death penalty but the parent also says removal of all assets. So I think life in prison with no possibility of parole plus removal of all assets is ideal. But I think this should only apply to the CEO and the board not everyone up and down the chain at least in the US where we have a “right to work”. I don’t know if the law will allow an effective removal of all assets. I’m thinking of trust fund…

Couple that with impossibility to be ignorant of what happens inside of a company, because if not, top level management has a big incentive to have a buffer to keep them purposedly unknowing of this kind of doings.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#92

Post by aaomidi »

nier wrote: post #52
aaomidi wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think death sentence is actually a bit much here. Im generally against death sentences for heat of the moment situations. Think: murder. But in a situation where you’ve had legal teams working with you, where you’ve been planning this out, and where you know what the damage to this is etc., you’re basically a massive threat to society. The active planning, intent, and maliciousness is something that should be…

For me, the death penalty contains traces of mercy and life-long incarceration does not. You take away someone’s freedom for the rest of their life instead of putting them out of their misery.

TBH I'm not much interested in `Punishment`, so long incarceration does not interest me personally.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#93

Post by nijave »

haltist wrote: post #73
bsder wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If companies are people, companies should be able to get the death penalty. We used to do this . Companies getting their charters revoked used to be something that wasn't uncommon. Unless you make the punishments for this an existential threat , it's just a cost of doing business.

How exactly do you get rid of 3M? They make so many chemicals necessary for modern consumer products that they are an irrevocable part of the global economy. There is no substitute for 3M. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually supply Intel, AMD, and other high-tech companies with chemicals necessary for photo-lithography. This is before we even get to what they supply to the military-industrial complex. Even if th…

Government acquisition, divestiture, and all IP entering the public domain?

Or even just forcing them to break up into more, smaller companies.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#94

Post by ThomPete »

This is a completely disingenuous take on the case. There isn't a single explanation of how its dangerous only thats its found in many different species and claims its toxic. If this shallow type of analysis is enough for otherwise technical people on this forum then we have a much bigger problem than 3M.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#95

Post by hinkley »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #6
acdha wrote: post #5

I increasingly think we need personal criminal liability for everyone in the management chain before this will end. As long as you can cash out your options before the reckoning, maybe even spin a division out to go bankrupt, there are just too many people who’ll chase the larger number. You need the guy who gets that internal memo to think that if he doesn’t report it to the EPA, he’ll spend the rest of his life won…

In China, there was a case of baby formula execs (Edit: pointed out to me further down thread that the execs were only jailed for 5-15 years with Sanlu's general manager receiving a life sentence, and the people executed very those directly responsible for tainting the product mentioned) knowingly selling product that was harmful and led to tens of thousands of hospitalizations and a handful of deaths. They were exec…

We need death sentences for corporations. Chapter 86 bankruptcy has a certain ring to it. Forced liquidation of assets. No insider trading (no auction participation by people materially involved in the convicted company who have interests in related companies).

We had those a couple hundred years ago, then the monarchies lost their teeth and capitalism and democracy got all mixed up together.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#96

Post by cyberax »

> A 1970 study of fish had to be abandoned “to avoid severe stream pollution” and because all the fish died. After being exposed to a chemical, the fish couldn’t stay upright and kept crashing into the fish tank and dying.

"We tested it on animals, and none of them survived. But that's OK! 'cause when we wrote the report up, we lied!"

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#97

Post by ThomPete »

nijave wrote: post #93
haltist wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly do you get rid of 3M? They make so many chemicals necessary for modern consumer products that they are an irrevocable part of the global economy. There is no substitute for 3M. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually supply Intel, AMD, and other high-tech companies with chemicals necessary for photo-lithography. This is before we even get to what they supply to the military-industrial complex. Even if th…

Government acquisition, divestiture, and all IP entering the public domain? Or even just forcing them to break up into more, smaller companies.

you live in a capitalist society not some socialist nightmare. Giving it to the government would be much much much worse.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#98

Post by serf »

lupusreal wrote: post #69
mrweasel wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death sentence is probably a bit much, but if management takes actions that they know will kill or maim I don't see a reason why punishment shouldn't be the same as if you went out and hit someone with a hammer. In this case, force 3M to pay for everything, if they refuse or can't the government sells of the company to pay for the cost. I'm not a fan of the death sentence, but I have no problem killing of evil compan…

At least six babies were killed; that's mass murder. It was done in cold blood, planned out ahead of time. The death penalty was the only fitting sentence.

i'll get behind the death penalty once we get that 100% accurate justice system i've been waiting on.

until then i'll just view it as a tool of the government to sate public bloodlust with regards to heinous crimes with the very thing they seek to punish : murder.

the very embodiment of "well, that's the best we can do." when confronted with the idea of correcting the loss of a life -- two losses to make the original victim feel less alone. Not a great correction.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#99

Post by orclev »

Waterluvian wrote: post #87
surgical_fire wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem of punishing corporations, is that the people that benefited from misconduct are possibly gone from the company already, and you might be punishing current employees who might even be unaware. The people responsible for the misconduct at the time need to face criminal prosecution, and their personal wealth has to be first on the line for damage reparations.

It’s not about punishment. That’s the core of my comment. Make it so horrible for the shareholders and owners.

Can do both. Destroy the company, but also go after those responsible. Anyone who knew about the situation but didn't make their supervisor(s) aware is personally liable for damages. Anyone on the board or C-Suite that was aware and either did nothing or didn't notify regulators is also personally liable. In both cases if anyone died as a result the companies actions they should be tried for manslaughter.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#100

Post by jiggawatts »

Swizec wrote: post #28
acdha wrote: post #5

I increasingly think we need personal criminal liability for everyone in the management chain before this will end. As long as you can cash out your options before the reckoning, maybe even spin a division out to go bankrupt, there are just too many people who’ll chase the larger number. You need the guy who gets that internal memo to think that if he doesn’t report it to the EPA, he’ll spend the rest of his life won…

> I increasingly think we need personal criminal liability for everyone in the management chain before this will end. I work in healthtech and it is fascinating how seriously everyone takes HIPAA because it includes provisions for personal liability. Every instance of exposed data costs you personally $1000 or so. All other regulations seem to be seen as “Ehhhh how close can we push it to reasonably claim we did the…

Here in Australia they updated the Privacy Act with personal liability for directors.

I discovered that every one of my client organisations is exempt, because of course they are.

Powerful people don’t go to jail, that’s for the common people.

Exemptions were put in place for all government agencies, and charities. Turns out they many health-related business are actually technically non-profits. So your health data can leak and they just shrug their shoulders and move on as if nothing had happened.

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