Web Analytics Illegal in UK after 26 May? Crazy • Hacker News Board

Re: Web Analytics Illegal in UK after 26 May? Crazy

#91

Post by ticks » Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 3:51 PM UTC

gyardley wrote: post #54

ticks wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are seeing this from a limited viewpoint. There's lots of people out there who don't even understand what the internet is, you'd be lucky if they know what a browsers is. The EU is proactively protecting those people, much like has been done for decades with offline data protection.

Protecting them from what exactly? I'm genuinely curious about this - what do you think gets done with a browser cookie that actually causes real harm to the user? Perhaps that should be regulated instead of the mechanism for it.

Protecting them from commercial use of their personal data - without explicit consent. In the US it's more of a free-for-all and businesses can get away with much more; in EU countries, their governments prefer to protect their populations from businesses (before anything bad happens). Just a different philosophy.

Re: Web Analytics Illegal in UK after 26 May? Crazy

#92

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 4:01 PM UTC

gcp wrote: post #65

The site focuses on the UK implementation of the law, but unfortunately the directive is EU wide and individual member states are hence supposed to put it into law, too. I say supposed because as in typical EU style, the member states are lagging, or doing their own thing. http://www.dlapiper.com/files/Uploads/Documents/DLA_Piper%20... Who are screwed: Austria, Latvia, Lithuania, Sweden and the UK. The actual law say…

[deleted]

Re: Web Analytics Illegal in UK after 26 May? Crazy

#93

Post by dave1010uk » Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 4:21 PM UTC

wardenclyffe wrote: post #90

dave1010uk wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the ICO's site ( http://www.ico.gov.uk ) there is no "don't accept cookies" option. You can only select "accept" or not interact with the form at all. If you don't accept cookies then the form is shown at the top of every page.

I stand corrected, sorry about that, originally it did, which was the cause of much amusement for a while. Obviously they fixed it.

It's amusing that the "fix" is making the user experience much worse.

Re: Web Analytics Illegal in UK after 26 May? Crazy

#94

Post by ajdecon » Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 4:28 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #40

mwexler wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law is the law as it's written and then as it's reflected in court decisions. We can't choose to do what is defined as illegal just because a FAQ says "we probably won't come after you". That's a risk that many businesses can't afford to take. It's a poorly written law, and as is often the case in laws as knee-jerk reactions to tech changes, throws the baby out with the bathwater. I do think this law shows that w…

> The law is the law as it's written and then as it's reflected in court decisions. That's true. While I'd welcome clearer law it's important to point out that it's the ICO who'll be enforcing the law, so if they say they're not going to go after people it's safe to say they won't. If anything people want the ICO to be a bit tougher - there are plenty of actually dodgy privacy invading practices going on the the ICO…

> While I'd welcome clearer law it's important to point out that it's the ICO who'll be enforcing the law, so if they say they're not going to go after people it's safe to say they won't.

Until some group puts pressure on them to enforce against analytics sites. Or the top brass at ICO are switched out. Or a politician makes it their mission for a little while. Or...

"We are making this illegal, but we won't enforce it, really!" is not a trustworthy statement.

Re: Web Analytics Illegal in UK after 26 May? Crazy

#95

Post by Groxx » Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 4:30 PM UTC

dhx wrote: post #58

setrofim_ wrote: post #22

Wouldn't it be better to mandate that sites honor the Do Not Track* HTTP header, rather than require each site to explicitly seek user consent? * http://dnt.mozilla.org/

§66 on page 20 of Directive 2009/136/EC at [1] seems to explicitly allow the use of Do-not-track header as an opt-in mechanism: Where it is technically possible and effective, in accordance with the relevant provisions of Directive 95/46/EC, the user’s consent to processing may be expressed by using the appropriate settings of a browser or other application. [1] http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=O…

That seems to imply that if you have 'accept cookies' and 'accept 3rd party cookies' checked, you can be tracked. Those boxes exist for precisely this reason, are they not consent?

Re: Web Analytics Illegal in UK after 26 May? Crazy

#96

Post by icebraining » Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 4:31 PM UTC

aqrashik wrote: post #87

icebraining wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A site is much more like a shop - private property, but a public place, and therefore it has legal restrictions if you want it open to the public.

Even if that argument holds, and I want to analyze which sections of my shop or store are frequently visited, how often users buy goods, and effects of various changes that I make, I don't see why that should be illegal except in cases where I actually ask permission from every customer who walks into my shop.

This doesn't prevent you from analyzing which sections of your shop or store are frequently visited or how often users buy goods - that can be analyzed using the server logs.

Now, should e.g. Wal-Mart be able to put an RFID tag on you so that they know who you ware the next time you come in? And more importantly, should they be able to contract a third-party, which can then know when you enter any store with which they have a contract?

Re: Web Analytics Illegal in UK after 26 May? Crazy

#97

Post by scanr » Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 5:13 PM UTC

justincormack wrote: post #60

scanr wrote: post #28

The most likely impact it will have is that it will drive more advertisers to closed platforms like Facebook where gaining consent will be easier. That's not to say Facebook won't be impacted, given that they won't be able to passively collect analytics using the Facebook like button on sites. In terms of workarounds, here are a couple that I have found: * Don't be a UK based company While non UK companies are encour…

Facebook probably will continue to collect data from Like buttons as it is the site owner not them who has to get consent...

It's a good point but the wording in the guidelines suggests that both the 3rd party and the site operator share responsibility to get consent (ignoring the fact that Facebook may just sidestep this, being a US based company):

"The person setting the cookie is therefore primarily responsible for compliance with the requirements of the law."

and

"Where third party cookies are set through a website both parties will have a responsibility for ensuring users are clearly informed about cookies and for obtaining consent."

It opens up an interesting liability issue. I suspect terms of service agreements for companies that provide services based on 3rd party cookies may be updated shortly.

Re: Web Analytics Illegal in UK after 26 May? Crazy

#98

Post by petercooper » Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 5:21 PM UTC

It's about as unscary as the various disability and accessibility laws in the UK and EU. They make lots of demands too and have scary consequences for inaction, yet hardly anyone follows them to the letter and I've not heard of anyone getting punished either (although I'm not suggesting no-one has, it's just not common).

I suspect most companies, other than those with the budgets and public visibility to run scared, will just ignore this law until it becomes a problem. Indeed, they haven't done a good job of promoting it either - it's been in a few news stories.. woopty woo, I bet the majority of webmasters haven't even heard of it.

Re: Web Analytics Illegal in UK after 26 May? Crazy

#99

Post by dlikhten » Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 6:10 PM UTC

wardenclyffe wrote: post #31

icebraining wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, their policy seems sensible and I'm having an hard time giving a fuck about the webmasters (is this still used?). If you want to track, do it properly with a package installed on your own server. stop subjecting your users to Google's All-Seeing Eye just because using their Analytics is easier for you.

I am currently a webmaster (and I don't know if that's still used either, doesn't feel like it), and this is going to be a huge pain in the arse. The main reason it is a pain is the vagueness of the legislation, nobody has any idea what they can and can't do. Sure we can follow the ICO and put a pop-up on the site asking to accept cookies or not (which if you select 'not' ironically creates a cookie), but as other pe…

Don't forget, all that consent given in the TOS is pointless as nobody has time to read all the TOS they need to.

I am in 100% support of this law. Even if it impacts my ability to analyze users.

Re: Web Analytics Illegal in UK after 26 May? Crazy

#100

Post by Iv » Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 6:25 PM UTC

scanr wrote: post #70

Iv wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a whole class of 'mom & pop' type websites out there that need analytics to function If they are not skilled enough to install their own counter, I doubt they need analytics.

* 'Installing their own counter' may require moving off their own hosting provider * I know a large number of business minded folk who could not operate without analytics but are not qualified to install any of the software in this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_web_analytics_software#...

So be it.

Or ask (pay ?) your hosting company to give you analytical tools (like a simple log !). It used to be the norm.