California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program • Hacker News Board

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#91

Post by bri3d » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 1:46 AM UTC

nocoiner wrote: post #88

bri3d wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this idea would be interesting if acceptance were mandated, but I'm not aware of any movement in that direction in any state. Mandating this kind of system would be massively fraught with political and legal peril in the US and is likely impossible. With the way the US works, there needs to be an incentive for businesses to use these systems, and I haven't seen an implementation with this focus yet. Bars would p…

I’m thoroughly confused by your first paragraph. It seems like it would be basically trivial to mandate acceptance of a digital ID system, at least within one of our 50 laboratories of democracy. Step 1: State adopts digital ID system and mandates that subdivisions and political units of the state are required to accept it for identification purposes in their interactions with the public. Step 2: Step 1 is extended t…

> 2: Step 1 is extended to private actors.

This the part which I believe would be extremely difficult to do by mandate given the current US social and political climate, which is why I think there needs to be some form of market incentive for these private actors.

> I also don’t think there necessarily needs to be an incentive for businesses to invest in expensive card reader systems that phone home to a database and authenticate the QR displayed on the device.

Thankfully nothing needs to phone home anyway, and there is no accessible database. It's all PKI based - the device attests certain facts and the reader verifies these attestations. A reasonably effective system which (for example) corner liquor store owners are going to want needs to exist to perform validation, though.

> Instead, just change the law against selling liquor to kids saying that a good faith effort to validate the authenticity of state issued digital ID is a defense to prosecution under that law. In my state, at least, this is basically how it works now with physical ID cards.

This would be the kind of incentive that I think would help a lot - if! a "good faith" effort to verify a digital ID were easier than a physical one. If using the digital system helps protect liquor vendors from liability and/or police sting operations, that's a huge incentive to use the system.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#92

Post by bri3d » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 1:47 AM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #90

bri3d wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this idea would be interesting if acceptance were mandated, but I'm not aware of any movement in that direction in any state. Mandating this kind of system would be massively fraught with political and legal peril in the US and is likely impossible. With the way the US works, there needs to be an incentive for businesses to use these systems, and I haven't seen an implementation with this focus yet. Bars would p…

It’s only year 1. Sooner than later it’ll feel silly not to accept it.

Colorado's has been around for four years now. I've tried to use it once (giant fail) and I've never seen or heard of anyone else using it.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#93

Post by nocoiner » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 2:50 AM UTC

bri3d wrote: post #91

nocoiner wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m thoroughly confused by your first paragraph. It seems like it would be basically trivial to mandate acceptance of a digital ID system, at least within one of our 50 laboratories of democracy. Step 1: State adopts digital ID system and mandates that subdivisions and political units of the state are required to accept it for identification purposes in their interactions with the public. Step 2: Step 1 is extended t…

> 2: Step 1 is extended to private actors. This the part which I believe would be extremely difficult to do by mandate given the current US social and political climate, which is why I think there needs to be some form of market incentive for these private actors. > I also don’t think there necessarily needs to be an incentive for businesses to invest in expensive card reader systems that phone home to a database and…

As to step 2, agreed - obviously we’re currently living in a world where stuff that seemed well within government’s remit since the ‘30s or so is now randomly determined to be extra constitutional. Who knew! But yes, that needs to be part of the system design.

That said, I still think this is fairly “easy” politically (weird court decisions notwithstanding) because there’s already an existing ID regime in place, and no one is saying that’s not a valid government function (yet). If a state wants to say that anyone can rely on a valid digital ID as proof of identity, that’s fundamentally permissive - if a private entity wants to hold itself to a higher standard, and require that every customer submit fingerprints and a birth certificate, it certainly can - good luck with that. But give everyone else the ability to reasonably rely on a standards-compliant identity app, and I think there will be a lot of voluntary uptake there.

Sounds like we’re probably in violent agreement - a system that makes sense for its users is probably going to be well received. States can lead the way by taking the pretty short step from physical IDs to digital IDs that are really not inferior in any way to the existing regime and potentially quite a bit more secure and convenient.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#94

Post by vore » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 5:38 AM UTC

kornhole wrote: post #82

vore wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely is speculation if you haven't done the legwork and just want to throw out quick and easy takes like this.

I hope for the best but plan for the worst. The government has a high bar to meet to earn my trust. Government has lied to me too many times. They need to find some way to prove this app is safe for my freedom. Until then, I will endure the sexual abuse of TSA groping my junk when I got through the airport.

If you have PreCheck, this app has literally nothing to do whether or not the TSA will give you a pat down or not. And I don't know about you, but TSA is pretty careful about not "groping your junk" and will always be clear what they intend to do and use the back of their hands specifically to avoid any kind of impropriety. Cut down on the hyperbole about "sexual abuse" because you're trivializing what sexual abuse actually is.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#95

Post by anonuser123456 » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

Tagbert wrote: post #58

localghost3000 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the thing I think most people aren’t thinking about. I promise you the police either have or are cooking up a way as we speak to image the entire contents of your phone when you hand it to them. Until we get some laws in place around this stuff, no way.

This is exactly the scenario that Apple’s proposed ID solution addresses. Not sure why California chose to go at it alone.

I remember reading that California intends to support Apple and Google’s wallet systems. My guess is that they are working on the backend first and this gives them the opportunity to exercise that system faster. Apple wallet itself likely requires more in depth security infrastructure and will take more time (speculation on my part).