Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick • Hacker News Board

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#91

Post by mc32 » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 3:44 PM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #83

berntb wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I motivated that statement. You don't have anything to say about that, either? Edit: Sigh, the "answer" below just repeats the previous, it is still not touching what I wrote. AGAIN: 1. I killed an argument (rational is just not in "kings" historically) -- you just ignored it. 2. I noted that this would probably result in a nuclear race with at least the traditional competitors of Iran -- Turkey and SA. 3. This relig…

I think both of: (a) that Iran would not be irrational. This is my considered opinion based on all I've read - Iranian politics seem subtle to me, with a tug of war between president, chief cleric and "Guardian Council" - a long, long way short of a despotic single point of failure. and (b) if it was irrational, there's little we could do about it, unless the preemptive strike / invasion route is taken, and that leve…

>firstly, that it does not apply (no single point of failure like a king, in this answer here)

I'm a bit late coming into this discussion. But I think I should like to clarify that Kings were not all powerful autocrats. They had councils and other Kings they had to answer to. Still, some went "rogue" as it were.

So to me the question is, could one of the people who control the levers "go rogue" do they/would they have controls to guard against that?

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#92

Post by berntb » Fri, Apr 13, 2012, 4:53 PM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #83

berntb wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I motivated that statement. You don't have anything to say about that, either? Edit: Sigh, the "answer" below just repeats the previous, it is still not touching what I wrote. AGAIN: 1. I killed an argument (rational is just not in "kings" historically) -- you just ignored it. 2. I noted that this would probably result in a nuclear race with at least the traditional competitors of Iran -- Turkey and SA. 3. This relig…

I think both of: (a) that Iran would not be irrational. This is my considered opinion based on all I've read - Iranian politics seem subtle to me, with a tug of war between president, chief cleric and "Guardian Council" - a long, long way short of a despotic single point of failure. and (b) if it was irrational, there's little we could do about it, unless the preemptive strike / invasion route is taken, and that leve…

You argue like there is only two alternatives -- total war or that Iran's junta gets hundreds of nuclear weapons on strategic missiles. It just isn't true.

1. mc32 adressed this, so the historic precedent stands. You acknowledge that you have no clue how Iran's junta is -- or how it will be in the coming ten years. (Sure, no one else has a clue, maybe not even in Qom.) The president do seems out, he didn't take orders well enough. We just cannot rely on sanity in the Iranian junta over the coming decade, since we just don't know; if the junta wanted peace, they can get it tomorrow.

2. There were occasions close to buttons pressed in the cold war... A nuclear race in the unstable Middle East is NOT a good thing; many millions might die. (Already Assad threatened the whole Mid East, to stop regime change!)

3. No one will use many billions of dollars on regime change to protect the Iranians from their present regime. Even if it is the humane thing to do. Dictators today rely on this.

But to leave the present situation alone is just not an alternative, because the next crazy junta will go for nuclear weapons with that as a motivation (South America?).

Iran's junta can be dealt with. It is a matter of motivation.

At present, Russia support any large weapon customers; given enough motivation, they'd change tune. The West can change Russia/China on this. Then you can start by e.g. finish destroying the Iranian economy. If they can't sell oil, the junta will react.

It is just a question if you want to pay a price now or maybe millions of lives, later. I can't do the evaluation; I hope that Obama is not too preoccupied with the next election.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#93

Post by seclorum » Tue, Apr 17, 2012, 9:35 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #85

seclorum wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think Iran can legitimately claim they have an existential fear of Israel and any attack on Israel is in their own defense. 300+ Israeli nuclear weapons, undeclared, and Israel not a signing member of the NPT pact. This is more than an existential threat - its a real threat of destruction. Why else would the Zionists invest so heavily in these weapons? I think that Israeli Nuclear Weapons are quite a valid t…

Israel has 300+ nuclear weapons in order to dissuade their unneighborly neighbors from making a third attempt to push them into the sea. They exist, essentially, and literally, to prevent anyone from finishing the Holocaust. Which is not an argument that has much traction with Mr. Ahmedinejad, the esteemed host of international Holocaust denial conferences, or with his similarly inclined sympathizers.

But why does Israel need such leverage, really? Does it ever address the cause for such hatred?

Nope. Israel continues its oppression of people it should consider its rightful subjects.

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#94

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 7:17 PM UTC

seclorum wrote: post #93

philwelch wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has 300+ nuclear weapons in order to dissuade their unneighborly neighbors from making a third attempt to push them into the sea. They exist, essentially, and literally, to prevent anyone from finishing the Holocaust. Which is not an argument that has much traction with Mr. Ahmedinejad, the esteemed host of international Holocaust denial conferences, or with his similarly inclined sympathizers.

But why does Israel need such leverage, really? Does it ever address the cause for such hatred? Nope. Israel continues its oppression of people it should consider its rightful subjects.

[deleted]

Re: Stuxnet worm reportedly planted by Iranian double agent using memory stick

#95

Post by philwelch » Fri, Apr 20, 2012, 7:30 PM UTC

seclorum wrote: post #93

philwelch wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has 300+ nuclear weapons in order to dissuade their unneighborly neighbors from making a third attempt to push them into the sea. They exist, essentially, and literally, to prevent anyone from finishing the Holocaust. Which is not an argument that has much traction with Mr. Ahmedinejad, the esteemed host of international Holocaust denial conferences, or with his similarly inclined sympathizers.

But why does Israel need such leverage, really? Does it ever address the cause for such hatred? Nope. Israel continues its oppression of people it should consider its rightful subjects.

Suffice it to say that Israel's Arab neighbors, and the rest of the world in general, have been trying to wipe out the Jews for much, much longer than the occupation of the Palestinian territories. Whatever wrong the Israeli government or Israeli settlers have done since that point, while worthy of criticism, shouldn't be used to excuse or justify a preexisting anti-Semitic agenda.