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Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

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Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#91

Post by cubefox »

beowulfey wrote: post #41
wsgeorge wrote: post #21

Off topic: this is my first time hearing of rinse aids. It really feels odd (to me) that such a thing would exist. I thought we all just used water and a napkin. I also have no experience with dishwashers, so how different is dishwater detergent from regular dishwashing soap?

Rinse aid is a dishwasher-specific product. It “helps” by removing residual soap and water spots from a dishwasher cycle. I use a brand of dishwasher tabs that are supposed to be more “natural” and never use rinse aid, to no ill effect. Personally I think the normal tablets and rinse aid are specifically designed to be used together.

Tabs usually include both detergent and rinse aid. Normally you would use both separately.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#93

Post by lupusreal »

sschueller wrote: post #22
r1ch wrote: post #13

From my understanding, this article is only about professional dishwashers used in restaurants and hotels etc. that use much higher concentrations and less rinsing than consumer dishwashers. They specifically mention that they could not repeat their findings on consumer dishwashers.

Yes but isn't this even worse? I can control what I use at home. I can't when I eat or drink out. So I get to pick between PFAS soaked throwaway single use cardboard cups or epithelial barrier damaging glass/ceramic ware.

> I can control what I use at home. I can't when I eat or drink out.

Of course you can, just pack a lunch. If your trip is longer than a day, then stop at grocery stores instead of restaurants. It's easy to avoid restaurants, so the failure to replicate this finding with residential dishwashers is good news. How could it be "even worse"?

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#94

Post by hellotomyrars »

walthamstow wrote: post #38
danw1979 wrote: post #2

Get yourself a big old tub of anhydrous citric acid from Amazon or wherever, make up a 10% solution and use that in place of rinse aid. Just check with your dishwasher manufacturer that it’s not going to cause issues first. I got a new Miele unit a few months ago and the manual specifically advises the use of such a solution, with caution not to make it any stronger. It’s been working like a charm.

I'm not using rinse aid at all. Just dishwasher gel with no rinse aid included, and salt. Cheap-ish Beko dishwasher. No issues.

Agreed, but I’m also someone who thinks dryer sheets are a scam as well.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#95

Post by lupusreal »

Two4 wrote: post #33
hughesjj wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far, to my knowledge, I've gotten food poisoning from something I cooked for myself exactly once, and that's because my 12 year old dumbass brain thought microwaving a steak for a few minutes was a valid was a valid way to cook it Almost every time I've actually gotten sick from food has been eating out. I've also seen some close calls like when my fiancee was served 'rare' pork... Which isn't a culinary thing.

you microwaved a steak?!!

People get unreasonably squeemish about microwaves. There's nothing wrong with them. Frozen TV dinners suck but that's something different.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#96

Post by arghwhat »

indigo0086 wrote: post #25
sschueller wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but isn't this even worse? I can control what I use at home. I can't when I eat or drink out. So I get to pick between PFAS soaked throwaway single use cardboard cups or epithelial barrier damaging glass/ceramic ware.

There's a lesson in that first few sentences. Of course eating out is risky as it's a black box where you get food for putting money in it. You're not guaranteed quality or safety in the more subtle sense

Note that it is a professional blackbox with regular oversight and heavy regulations (depending on area). Cooking at home is certainly transparent in comparison, it is also the work of a usually incompetent amateur with no proper training, zero oversight and zero regulations to adhere to.

Where I live, the former is far more trustworthy, with home dining only winning on price and ingredient choice - not safety.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#98

Post by eejjjj82 »

> Enterocytic liquid-liquid interfaces were established on permeable supports, and direct cellular cytotoxicity, transepithelial electrical resistance, paracellular flux, immunofluorescence staining, RNA-sequencing transcriptome, and targeted proteomics were performed.

tldr; they did science

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#99

Post by tzs »

potatopatch wrote: post #57
steveBK123 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It is surprisingly hard to give yourself food poisoning if you cook for yourself. On the other hand, like you, essentially every food poisoning I've had was dining out. Suburbs with lax food safety enforcement, city with some of the most rigorous inspection regimes in the country, wherever. Once my wife & I both got food poisoning ordering completely different food, as though the entire food station was cont…

It's extremely common to get food poisoning at home, and for many people/cases it is indistinguishable from the flu. Who separates meats in their fridge and on their cutting boards, dates the opening times of items, etc? Similarly, a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything, which is why its safer AFA chemicals. It's just providing the hope that small doses of something you've already interacted with won't…

> Similarly, a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything

What do you consider to be sterilization? Even my old dishwasher, which was made in 2002, has a sani-rinse option that adds a 10 minute rinse with 160℉ (71℃) water which the manual says satisfies the NSF Protocol P153 for sanitizing in household spray-type dishwashers. Unfortunately I can't find a free copy of NSF Protocol P153 to see what that actually accomplishes.

Looking at a few dishwashers that I'd consider to replace mine when it eventually breaks--and I'm a cheapskate so that basically means what I can find at Home Depot or Lowes or Best Buy in the $500-800 range rather--it looks like sanitizing or high temperature cycles are still common, although nowadays what they are saying they meet is "NSF/ANSI 184: Residential Dishwashers" [1].

That requires a minimum 5-log (99.999%) reduction of bacteria and a final rinse temperature of at least 150℉. The 5-log bacteria reduction is only required if you run the sanitizing cycle.

For commercial dishwashers the required reduction in bacteria is the same, although they are required to reach at least 165℉ rinse if they are stationary rack single-temp dishwashers or 180℉ otherwise. For commercial dishwashers the 5-log reduction is required on the regular cycles.

[1] https://www.nsf.org/consumer-resources/articles/dishwasher-c...

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#100

Post by fuzzfactor »

poizan42 wrote: post #39
jongjong wrote: post #27

Interesting, my mother taught me to always rinse the soap off from my dishes thoroughly and look at that. Sometimes superstition is more useful than expert advice.

What's superstitious about that? Soap isn't made for human consumption, it seems prudent to avoid consumption unless proven safe.

Momma was the expert, it was always pure superstition for people to think they didn't need to rinse, not just once but multiple times.

In the analytical chem lab, you can get an idea how suitable pyrexware is for future use by mathematically considering the quality of the final rinse water, the effective dilution ratio, and the number of times rinsed.

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