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Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#91

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

standardUser wrote: post #83
tomohelix wrote: post #33

Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…

> No such thing as wage depression or abuse at this point You're saying that Apple can't find people from less-developed countries with these specific credentials and then offer them a starting salary that's $100k under what they would have needed to offer to someone from California? > because they are for all legal purposes, an equal to any American once they have EB2. Equal to an American in legal rights perhaps, b…

>Equal to an American in legal rights perhaps, but there is no right to competitive pay.

The theoretical factor that's supposed to depress pay for workers on non-immigrant visas is that they don't have easy job mobility - the bar to hire an H-1B is much higher than to hire a US native worker. Once you have an EB-2 (an immigrant visa, that entitles you to a Green Card), that no longer applies - modulo national-security type positions that require citizenship you're just as hirable as a US native.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#92

Post by meowtimemania »

VirusNewbie wrote: post #80

I have worked at other FAANGs where I see certain immigrant managers only seem to hire other immigrants from the same country...

I've noticed this at companies I've worked at. Either at the team level, org level, or even the company level. I've observed it from White, Chinese and Indians. I think there's just a human tendency of in group bias.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#93

Post by rexpop »

closeparen wrote: post #85
rexpop wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the third option is more plausible; neither executive decree nor individual managers' particular penchant drives these trends, but rather widespread cultural trends that individual managers act on subconsciously. We're likely talking about favoring H-1B visas; predominantly Indian, and predominantly male, with a median age of 34.[0] Do individual hiring managers have individual, personal biases? Yes, but what…

FAANG SWE and body-shop “IT” careers couldn’t be more different.

You exaggerate, but maybe you can instead articulate the differences?

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#94

Post by tomohelix »

bubblethink wrote: post #87
jonathankoren wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's a mostly pointless bureaucratic exercise in bogus paperwork where lawyers and the gov. make bank I love how people always think that The Government™ does things to make money, rather some congressman from the Bible Belt just engaging in straight up xenophobia.

I mean the outcome is that it's a lot of wasted time and money. The original motivation for these policies was a pro-labor/protectionist stance in hiring immigrants, but that is completely subverted because there are no restrictions in hiring temp. immigrant workers. This PERM thing only comes up if you want to keep them permanently. The process basically subverts everyone's expectations, disappoints everyone, and ju…

I see it as arbitrary barriers to immigration to satisfy those who don't want to see foreigners in the US. The fact it was corrupted to become a money-making business is just a natural result of any archaic laws in the US. It is rather the norm that lawyers and politicians make a dumb law to get attention, then later on they refuse to change it because it is profitable to keep it that way. If it wasn't profitable, they would change it to get political points already.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#95

Post by alphanullmeric »

rexpop wrote: post #57
supportengineer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You will obey your manager or you will be deported" is very powerful.

Frankly, it's too powerful. We need much stronger protections for workers if we're going to continue down this route. Deportation threats undermine labor's bargaining power, driving down wages and working conditions. How can we expect to operate a democracy when workers have this gun to their head?

What gun? I see only the one you’re asking to be pointed at others.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#96

Post by tigen »

JAlexoid wrote: post #81
supportengineer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You will obey your manager or you will be deported" is very powerful.

Yeah.... Except that this is not true. There's not enough talent in US, so we have to seek elsewhere. American graduates have these starry eyes and want to work mostly in two types of companies FAANG or early stage startups... Who's going to go to work at pharma companies, banks, electric companies?

So what you're saying is banks don't want to pay well.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#97

Post by jen20 »

JAlexoid wrote: post #81
supportengineer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You will obey your manager or you will be deported" is very powerful.

Yeah.... Except that this is not true. There's not enough talent in US, so we have to seek elsewhere. American graduates have these starry eyes and want to work mostly in two types of companies FAANG or early stage startups... Who's going to go to work at pharma companies, banks, electric companies?

The market solution to this is for those companies to pay more until they attract people to work there.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#98

Post by landemva »

JAlexoid wrote: post #81
supportengineer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You will obey your manager or you will be deported" is very powerful.

Yeah.... Except that this is not true. There's not enough talent in US, so we have to seek elsewhere. American graduates have these starry eyes and want to work mostly in two types of companies FAANG or early stage startups... Who's going to go to work at pharma companies, banks, electric companies?

> There's not enough talent in US

The hiring pool could be larger, but HR and hiring managers don't want men over 50.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#99

Post by rexpop »

alphanullmeric wrote: post #95
rexpop wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, it's too powerful. We need much stronger protections for workers if we're going to continue down this route. Deportation threats undermine labor's bargaining power, driving down wages and working conditions. How can we expect to operate a democracy when workers have this gun to their head?

What gun? I see only the one you’re asking to be pointed at others.

Deportation orders in the United States are executed by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), a division of the Department of Homeland Security. ICE agents are authorized to carry firearms such as handguns, rifles, and shotguns.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#100

Post by vsskanth »

I think this relates to something called batch PERM where they can apply for employment based (EB) green cards for batches of their existing visa employees in similar roles instead of doing recruitment for every single position.

Meta got in trouble with the DOJ for the same thing. They advertised for positions in newspapers and only accepted paper applications for PERM positions, unlike their other jobs which are advertised online. This is mainly because you don't want anyone actually applying for the PERM roles, since you need to prove no minimally (not most) qualified US citizen or PR could be found.

I think long term this is going to make getting PERM approved more difficult. It already takes 2-3 years now (without any audits) to get an I-140 (green card) application approved, not to mention getting the card can take decades in some cases.

People on H1B work visa can't stay on it for more than 6 years unless they actually get through PERM and get I-140, so I'm expecting this change will have a chilling effect on employers sponsoring work visas and applying for PERM unless it's a very specialized role. Why would you sponsor someone if you know they can't work in the country long term ? Hard times ahead for people on visa.

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