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Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

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Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#91

Post by Slava_Propanei »

heresie-dabord wrote: post #74
palata wrote: post #13

> In his words, “By breaching the limits set on man by nature and history, industrial society engendered disability and suffering in the name of eliminating disability and suffering. … The warming biosphere is making it intolerable to think of industrial growth as progress; now it appears to us as aggression against the human condition.” This resonates with me.

> industrial society I dislike blaming "industrial society" as an impersonal, abstract villain. The fact is that it is humans who may either organise themselves and build a society or fail in the trying. Modern industry and the modern economy have achieved remarkable, good things on a global scale . Even on the scale of our solar system, if we consider the exploration of other planets. The fact is that humans have tr…

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Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#92

Post by RationalDino »

gumby wrote: post #41
tazjin wrote: post #26

I dislike reading this kind of article, where it feels like the author swallowed a thesaurus and is using every second word to (often unnecessarily) display how clever they are. Note how actually clever texts (probably including the source texts that this is about!) are rarely written like that.

The vocabulary does not seem extraordinary to me. The only oddball words are actually neologisms of Illich’s (e.g. “pleonexia”) which are quoted and explained. I doubt someone like, say, Orwell, who complained about the stultifying use of language, would have any objection to this essay.

Average reading level consensus from https://readabilityformulas.com/readability-scoring-system.p... is "college graduate". Most people read well below their theoretical grade level. For example about half of high school graduates read at a grade 8 level or below.

There have been a number of surveys of adult proficiency in reading. For instance the 2013 PIAAC. From that, I would estimate less than 2% of people can read this.

If you're in that number, great! So am I. But the complexity of the language still limits the potential audience.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#93

Post by Obscurity4340 »

aguacaterojo wrote: post #66

I found Deschooling Society book on my dad's bookshelf about 9 years ago. No idea why he had it. I quit university about 3/4 way through reading it. I'm poorly adapted to the cadence and mechanisms of institutional education and this guy provided an alternative that I have employed since to an effect further than I had imagined was possible.

Can you give us a bit more with regards to the most successfull or helpful bits in your experience?

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#94

Post by walleeee »

slibhb wrote: post #75

Criticizing modern medicine makes a lot of sense if you're a devout Catholic because the afterlife tempers the sadness of death. For non-believers, though, earthly life is all there is, so reducing suffering, disease, and poverty are much more pressing goals -- goals that might be worth a little alienation. I would emphasize choice: people can (and do) embrace alternative ways of life, from the Amish to kibbutzim. Si…

I would contest the notion that a lack of religiosity must magnify discontent with death. Also it remains rather difficult to "opt out" of a protracted, likely intubated decline, at least in the US. Moreover there is no opting out of modernity writ large. This is the nature of multi-polar traps: choosing not to join an arms race is a local, temporary reprieve.

The optionality modernity seems determined to optimize for is narrow at best. At worst it threatens its own end

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#95

Post by paganel »

palata wrote: post #77
paganel wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not only emergency vehicles, it's also stuff like mini-vans and lorries that keep us well-fed. It's about who's going to pay for those highways once the personal cars are gone? How are you going to keep a Western logistics network in place without those highways and roads? No, extending the railway network to its past glory days (like the left-hand map in this photo [1]) won't work and will definitely not happen…

> It's about who's going to pay for those highways Those who are paying now. And if it's only for emergency vehicles and trucks that bring food to cities (because you are right, cities need them to survive), then don't you think you need less infrastructure? Doesn't seem to me that 6-lanes highways are fully used by emergency vehicles and trucks. > won't work and will definitely not happen anymore. It's not black and…

> trucks that bring food to cities (because you are right, cities need them to survive), then don't you think you need less infrastructure?

You'll still need the current paved roads to remain pretty much in place. Granted, the highways with 3 or more lanes could lose them (the extra lanes, that is), but we're still going to need 2-lane highways in order to connect the bigger centers of interest.

To say nothing of the fact that less personal cars will also mean much more expensive gasoline/diesel in order to cover up for the last sales (once you get rid of personal cars), lots of economies of scale will vanish over night. The same discourse should be gad regarding the current forced push to electrification.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#96

Post by paganel »

di4na wrote: post #80
palata wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's about who's going to pay for those highways Those who are paying now. And if it's only for emergency vehicles and trucks that bring food to cities (because you are right, cities need them to survive), then don't you think you need less infrastructure? Doesn't seem to me that 6-lanes highways are fully used by emergency vehicles and trucks. > won't work and will definitely not happen anymore. It's not black and…

Note that illich is against cities. In his mind, a more atomised world would emerge from such a ban, more localised and focused on communities in neighborhood, with less dependencies outside. So the only thing using roads would be emergency. Food would need to be local too or transported slowly by speed of walk or bicycle. Which means that we would all be taxed pretty high for something rarely used.

> Food would need to be local too or transported slowly by speed of walk or bicycle.

I'm sure he knew that, and I'm a genuine fan of Illich (with all his pluses and minuses), but what he proposes will certainly lead to future famines.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#97

Post by cainxinth »

> *But he was blistering in his critique of our medical systems oriented toward postponing the end as long as possible. “We now see that a majority of these medical achievements are deceptive misnomers, actually prolonging the suffering of madmen, cripples, old fools and monsters,” he wrote.*

That one has certainly proved prescient. Medical science has gotten frighteningly good at prolonging life even in cases when it probably shouldn’t because the patient has no quality of life.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#98

Post by chubot »

marttt wrote: post #24
stanislavb wrote: post #2

Has anyone read any of his books? What do you think?

A great introduction to his lines of thinking was (to me) "Ivan Illich in Conversation" by David Cayley [0]. Essentially a book-length interview. While I find him truly interesting, there is an annoyance: he is strongly critical about "traditional" school system, while holding a PhD himself. I've always found this kind of thing somewhat controversial. I wonder if he did consider dropping out during his studies; and i…

Yeah the tone and style of the text kinda bugged me. Who talks like that?

I'm definitely sympathetic to the kind of ideas he's advocating, but it's dressed up in a language that makes it seem untrue. It's not surprising to me that he has a Ph.D.

Picking something random from the beginning of Tools for Conviviality:

https://co-munity.net/system/files/ILLICH%201973_tools_for_c...

For several years at CIDOC in Cuernavaca we have conducted critical research on the monopoly of the industrial mode of production and have tried to define conceptually alternative modes that would fit a postindustrial age. ...

Alternative devices for the production and marketing of mass education are technically more feasible and ethically less tolerable than compulsory graded schools. Such new educational arrangements are now on the verge of replacing traditional school systems in rich and in poor countries. They are potentially more effective in the conditioning of job−holders and consumers in an industrial economy. They are therefore more attractive for the management of present societies, more seductive for the people, and insidiously destructive of fundamental values.

I think what he's saying is something like:

> Schools use metrics likes grades that are slanted towards the goals of an industrial economy. This isn't the only way of organizing society, or the most ethical way. So let's consider alternatives.

There is an extreme amount of passive voice in his writing (and yes I know passive voice can be useful; it's not used well here.)

e.g. I'm having a lot of trouble parsing this part:

are technically more feasible and ethically less tolerable than compulsory graded schools

Is he actually saying that alternatives to mass education are LESS ethically tolerable than compulsory graded schools?

That feels like the OPPOSITE of what he says elsewhere.

If he actually used the active voice, it would be clear WHO considers it ethically less tolerable.

So yeah my initial impression is this writing is very bad.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#99

Post by wanderingbit »

marttt wrote: post #24
stanislavb wrote: post #2

Has anyone read any of his books? What do you think?

A great introduction to his lines of thinking was (to me) "Ivan Illich in Conversation" by David Cayley [0]. Essentially a book-length interview. While I find him truly interesting, there is an annoyance: he is strongly critical about "traditional" school system, while holding a PhD himself. I've always found this kind of thing somewhat controversial. I wonder if he did consider dropping out during his studies; and i…

I think at the end of the day we want both perspectives. We all benefit from having people from both inside and outside the system critique the system. Certainly, the person who walks the walk and talks the talk deserves more street cred, but from the my layperson’s perspective I’d much rather live in a world where I can read Linkola’s and Illich’s critiques and take the best parts from both of them.
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