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As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

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Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#91

Post by quonn »

lampington wrote: post #61
quonn wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. Restrict foreign ownership of huge swathes of the country. This could be as simple as "new construction only". This will make the problem worse as the Portuguese will complain that the foreigners own the beautiful modern buildings. Additionally it‘s important to keep in mind that this is not feasible for EU countries with the four freedoms. It would be like Florida banning ownership of existing houses for Califo…

I'd go the other way with the buildings -- there are lots of unmaintained or even semi-ruined buildings, even in central Lisbon, which would benefit from foreign investment. Some of them are probably that way due to inheritance disputes, but others, I think, just need an owner that values their age. Maybe allow foreign ownership of older buildings over some particular size, or only if they do significant repairs, or…

That was always the idea. There was a cheaper golden visa just for repairing ruins …

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#92

Post by somewhereoutth »

quonn wrote: post #83
somewhereoutth wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you/your employer are paying social security contributions, then you can give up your own health insurance. People in Portugal tend to have private healthcare plans for everyday stuff, but they are insanely cheap. For urgent/serious things, the public system is effective enough. However you will need to contribute for at least 15 years before you qualify for a pension, and as you say there are no deductions…

I think I have explained the typical situation a few times in this thread but I will try again. 1. Nomads are not employed by Portuguese companies. 2. They could give up their home health insurance, but then they cannot remain residents of their home countries where this is mandatory. And since nomads are nomadic they cannot leave Portugal. The insurance would usually only work there. 3. And the retirement fund is th…

1. Plenty of Portuguese people and foreigners resident in Portugal work for foreign companies without huge tax burdens, plenty more work freelance for foreign clients without huge tax burdens.

2. I assume you are talking about Americans? You can't expect tax breaks just because your home country doesn't offer universal healthcare!

3. Indeed private pensions are not tax deductible here, but that doesn't mean taxes are higher, it means they are not less!

The 88% you said sounds more like your actual living expenses, not the tax you pay to the Portuguese government. So don't call it tax, because it is not.

NHR has unfortunately been abused by people who were in fact largely resident here, and the Portuguese are quite right to close the loophole. You want to benefit from Portuguese society? Then you contribute.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#93

Post by somewhereoutth »

quonn wrote: post #85
somewhereoutth wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. My gross might not be quite 80K, but my total tax burden including social security is about 33%. The healthcare system here is a mix of state provided urgent/serious care - to a high standard - and private but very cheap options for more mundane matters. Furthermore, that social security contribution buys into one of best defined benefit pension schemes still available anywhere.

Do you have a Portuguese employer? If so this is not surprising at all. > Furthermore, that social security contribution buys into one of best defined benefit pension schemes still available anywhere. Ridiculous. It‘s not even close to being funded in the long term. It‘s one of the worst on the continent where all of them them some problems.

To my knowledge the Portuguese government has never failed its obligations to pensioners, why would it do so in the future? The economy is growing and this will all be backed by a stronger more integrated EU anyway. I'm happy to take that bet!

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#94

Post by lampington »

quonn wrote: post #91
lampington wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd go the other way with the buildings -- there are lots of unmaintained or even semi-ruined buildings, even in central Lisbon, which would benefit from foreign investment. Some of them are probably that way due to inheritance disputes, but others, I think, just need an owner that values their age. Maybe allow foreign ownership of older buildings over some particular size, or only if they do significant repairs, or…

That was always the idea. There was a cheaper golden visa just for repairing ruins …

I wonder how much good it did? You do see lots of places for sale in the countryside with XXX of land with a ruin of YYY, and it sounds like people have been using those to build summer houses, but the city centre feels like where it with be needed most. And there are still prominent ruins in central Lisbon, right by Marques de Pombal for example.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#95

Post by rafaelmn »

quonn wrote: post #90
rafaelmn wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing as Croatia (realeatate investment is viewed as only safe investment and basically people's retirement savings). Economic situation (and mentality) is very similar - Portugals problem seems to be more extreme though since it's located in a more interesting area (closer to developed Europe).

I heard some people are just starting to consider Croatia, EU integration is still happening, the Euro just arrived. Give it 10 years …

Yeah it's already headed in that direction with realestate pricing. The only upside is that in Croatia you can pay <25% tax if you work as a contractor (up to 1M€ income per year) and there's a decent level of private healthcare available since medical tourism is a thing.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#96

Post by candiodari »

seydor wrote: post #7

The older a society is, the more boomers get their way, and that's where the root of the whole southern europe misery lies. Young people are trapped in the country and the best option objectively is to leave. (Or to somehow undemocratically lower taxes and make the country competitive) Are there really so many digital nomads in Portugal that they raise prices? Airbnb is certainly a factor (although a lot of airbnb in…

This society is old because it does not provide reasonable opportunity for youths. It can't (and won't) pay for opportunities for young people, and it can't survive without young people.

Even here, the situation is trivial: they need to pay more. As simple as that.

This is a huge problem in essentially all of Southern Europe, not just Portugal. Frankly, it's "not that bad" in Portugal, compared to for example Northern Spain.

Currently this situation is masking the same problem in North West Europe (.uk, .ie, parts of .fr, .be, .nl and parts of .de). There is a vast shortage of younger people which is temporarily somewhat covered by immigration of skilled labor from places where it's a lot worse. However, that immigration is drying up, and already cannot cover the "natural" outflow (ie. pensioners, and people outright dying). And there's also emigration, which makes the picture pretty bad.

The problem is not just very visible in the financial situation, it is very visible in actual population statistics. Despite the complaints about it, even the inflows due to conflicts such as Afghanistan, Sudan, and the same will be true now with Israel, these conflicts cannot get Europe to breakeven anymore for even a month.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#97

Post by JetSpiegel »

quonn wrote: post #26
withinboredom wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep! I was there recently for work and we decided to go on a walking tour given by a local who grew up there, arranged by a coworker who was from there. Our guide took us through one neighborhood and commented that this neighborhood used to be bustling all day and long into the night, but now it is 95% airbnb. During the winter, most of the houses are completely empty. It's effectively a dead neighborhood, but the ar…

This has very little to do with nomads and everything with tourism. 15 years ago Lisbon was in terrible shape, mostly collapsing due to rent controls. And this is still the case to a degree. You have an enormous number of houses where the (older than, I think, 55) tenants pay 50 Euros per month that cannot be increased and the landlords pay more than that just in taxes and basic fees. So no renovation is done, everyt…

This is no longer true, the older rents were unfrozen by Assunção Cristas, about a decade ago. As a consequence, many older people were thrown out of their homes to make way for AirBnB, particularly in the touristy areas.

The rent comtrols have been there for the better part of a century, but they were only a problem when tourism boomed, rent control cannot be a cause of shortages if it was in place before without problems.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#98

Post by JetSpiegel »

rafaelmn wrote: post #31
therealmarv wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Portugal is broke, there is no easy solution, they need their taxes (actually even more than now).

Shift burden from income tax -> property tax. My country (Croatia) has a similar issue and the finance minister even said he thinks this is the correct move but there's no "political will" to do this.

This would be ideal, but as so many people own their own homes, this would be politically unfeasible.

I would increase property tax exponentially after the 5th property or so, to hit the big landlords and investment funds, while keeping the homeowners and small landlords appeased. Then take that money and build or buy public housing to rent for cheap prices, to bring the prices down for everyone.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#99

Post by JetSpiegel »

binarycrusader wrote: post #36
quonn wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the calculator does not really take into account the 35% social security if the money is paid by a foreign entity to the foreigner directly. @binarycrusader: I can‘t reply below. It‘s not 35% but 34,75%. It‘s easy to find that online and this rate is not depending on the person. A foreigner or nomad does by definition not have a Portuguese employer. They have to pay the employer part themselves. It‘s that sim…

Sure, but the social security contributions and tax rates vary wildly based on who your employer is, etc. so it's misleading to claim it's 88% without specifying the specific conditions. Also, according to the WikiPedia page, none of the Social Security Contribution rates are exactly 35%. Would you care to share the exact conditions? I don't read this the same way: can you point to which "Social Security Regime" on t…

If you are a contractor with a Portuguese entity, you can use a special regime called Recibos Verdes, that means the social security payments are smaller and independent of your salary, I think 100€ per month is the minimum. This was a loophole by many companies used to avoid having "real" employees, and there have been crackdowns on this, it's mostly for temporary contractors. If you have 3 years of concurrent "temporary" contracts with the same entity, you must ve registered as an employee.

Re: As Digital Nomads Flock to Lisbon, Portugal's Youth Are Leaving in Droves

#100

Post by JetSpiegel »

netsharc wrote: post #38
quonn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It‘s not misleading. You take home 9600 in my opinion. What you call the marginal rate is applied to the full salary as far as I know. And the social security is also applied to the full amount unless the person is employed by a Portuguese company that would pay half. Even the most optimistic tax accountants say around 70% minimum is to be paid with various options applied. That would leave 24.000. Portugal has many…

3 words make your argument smell: "in my opinion". Are we talking facts or your opinion being represented as facts? So if it's facts, got sources?

It's a bold face lie, just propaganda. Here's the table from the tax authority for 2022:

https://info.portaldasfinancas.gov.pt/pt/informacao_fiscal/c...

The top marginal rate is 48% at 78834 €, so if you earn 80k€, that 48% is applied to 2k. Regular marginal tax rate stuff.

Social Security is separate, just checked my own salary sheet and it's 11% for a regular employee. The employer pays the rest, if you are both employee and the employer you must pay both parts.

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