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Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

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Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#91

Post by rini17 »

unmole wrote: post #82
rini17 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't voluntary agreement between employer and employees better than regulations? They should be last resort, and they can't catch everything, such as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38028660

> Isn't voluntary agreement between employer and employees better than regulations? This this case the employee isn't volunteering. > such as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38028660 They can't catch social media surveys?

> This this case the employee isn't volunteering.

You mean what Tesla does?

> They can't catch social media surveys?

You conveniently omitted the injury rates.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#92

Post by arghwhat »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #85
arghwhat wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proper term is "democracy" when the mob is the majority of a society.

In a democracy you pass laws and those laws are applied uniformly, and again noone can demand that anyone else goes beyond the law.

This is a complete misunderstanding of what the purpose of a law is and how society works.

Everyone always makes demands that go far above the law. Your legal demand to those around you is "don't murder me, vandalize my things and steal the remains". Your full demand also involves amongst others respectful treatment and consideration, and you don't socialize with those you who treat your poorly even though such treatment was perfectly legal.

The law sets the bar for criminal liability. Society as a whole and its individuals freely set the bar for cooperation. A unionized work force is a social group that has formalized in advance the bar to cooperate with them.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#93

Post by TeMPOraL »

unmole wrote: post #46
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, let's just pay people a living wage and offer them safe working conditions. Unions are not the problem here, it's the working conditions. Unions form as a reaction to working conditions / terms. If there wasn't a problem, there wouldn't be a union.

Is the Swedish economy not doing well? Why can't the workers switch to companies that offer better working conditions?

They surely can - thanks, in big part, to the unions. Employers are sticky, working conditions cost money. Left to market mechanisms only, a company with good working conditions doesn't use this as a way to pouch workers from a competitor with bad working condition - instead, the company makes its working conditions even worse, or gets outcompeted.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#94

Post by mcv »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #56
RandomLensman wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies are totally entitled to stick to the law, but they also need to then deal with the fact that narrow compliance with the law might bring them into conflict with parts of society (who in turn might stick to the law in dealing with them). That said, we already have determined that generally just "sticking to the law" isn't a great defense in all situations anyway.

In a free society based on the rule of law, you cannot demand that anyone goes beyond the law. That's a key principle. Now, as mentioned, in business other parties can also use their legal rights to bring about negotiations, but let's not depict Tesla as horrible for simply staying within the law...

Would you be happy in a society where everybody lies to you all the time? Lying isn't illegal (except under oath), but it would make for a really shitty society.

You can absolutely expect people to do more than just obey the law. Everybody does. Tesla does not, and that may lead Tesla's employees to use their perfectly legal right to strike. And by your standards, you can't demand that they don't strike, because it's legal.

But it's a shitty basis for a relationship. If Tesla wants its workers to do good work for them, they need to listen to their workers.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#95

Post by eastlalbagh »

arghwhat wrote: post #92
mytailorisrich wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a democracy you pass laws and those laws are applied uniformly, and again noone can demand that anyone else goes beyond the law.

This is a complete misunderstanding of what the purpose of a law is and how society works. Everyone always makes demands that go far above the law. Your legal demand to those around you is "don't murder me, vandalize my things and steal the remains". Your full demand also involves amongst others respectful treatment and consideration, and you don't socialize with those you who treat your poorly even though such treat…

[flagged]

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#96

Post by mytailorisrich »

mcv wrote: post #89
mytailorisrich wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla is not doing anything illegal as far as I understand. Looks like there is an expectation that Tesla behaves in a certain way in Sweden because " that's way we've always done it " but that's not in law. Tesla is sticking to the law, as far as I understand. I'm a bit uncomfortable about companies being criticised for sticking to the law. Of course, if workes and unions disagree they can also use their legal right…

> I'm a bit uncomfortable about companies being criticised for sticking to the law. Are you serious? Should you only be allowed to criticise companies (and people?) when they break the law? That would be the end of free speech. Obeying the law is not synonymous with doing good. The law is the very bottom line, but there's tons of shitty behaviour that's perfectly legal. That doesn't mean it's okay. There are tons of…

Why so emotional?

There's different levels in criticism. Here Tesla seems to be hammered simply for sticking with the law. This is excessive, IMO: if what they are doing is so outrageous then that should not be allowed in law.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#97

Post by masklinn »

will5421 wrote: post #14
StevenWaterman wrote: post #5

From a previous discussion: https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2021/09/21/when-mcdonal...

“Truckers refused to deliver food and beer to McDonalds.“ Beer?

In most european countries, the McD menu has the local table booze (beer, wine, …).

In several countries McD actually has its own McBeer (might be the sole offering, or be alongside the country’s usual) although I have no idea what goes into it or how good it is.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#98

Post by mcv »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #96
mcv wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm a bit uncomfortable about companies being criticised for sticking to the law. Are you serious? Should you only be allowed to criticise companies (and people?) when they break the law? That would be the end of free speech. Obeying the law is not synonymous with doing good. The law is the very bottom line, but there's tons of shitty behaviour that's perfectly legal. That doesn't mean it's okay. There are tons of…

Why so emotional? There's different levels in criticism. Here Tesla seems to be hammered simply for sticking with the law. This is excessive, IMO: if what they are doing is so outrageous then that should not be allowed in law.

You're missing the point. Tesla gets hammered for treating their employees poorly and rejecting reasonable demands to fix the problem.

> Why so emotional?

I don't know. Ask Elon. He hasn't been very rational lately.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#99

Post by hef19898 »

unmole wrote: post #88
hef19898 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, because Tesla doesn't care about those 3%...

Yeah, because Elon Musk is known for financial prudence and not getting into petty fights.

You have a point there.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#100

Post by masklinn »

arghwhat wrote: post #76
mytailorisrich wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla is not doing anything illegal as far as I understand. Looks like there is an expectation that Tesla behaves in a certain way in Sweden because " that's way we've always done it " but that's not in law. Tesla is sticking to the law, as far as I understand. I'm a bit uncomfortable about companies being criticised for sticking to the law. Of course, if workes and unions disagree they can also use their legal right…

Solely sticking to the law means paying minimum wage with maximum hours for any work type with no benefits. Negotiation and better terms are not part of the law, but I'm pretty sure you don't want to do without. Union agreements are the standard way to do this here, and refusing to negotiate with unions means refusing to cooperate with the work force market. They can disagree with unions and the people within the law…

There is no minimum wage in sweden, because in central european labour fashion they expect labour and companies to cooperate and come to a mutually agreeable and socially beneficial rate.

Although germany recently ended up introducing a legal minimum wage because an other US corp was being too shit about it (I don’t remember if it was amazon or something like walmart).

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