Nota is a language for writing documents, like academic papers and blog posts • Hacker News Board

Re: Nota is a language for writing documents, like academic papers and blog posts

#91

Post by Propelloni » Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 8:46 AM UTC

SanderNL wrote: post #77

manxman wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cause git ain’t user friendly enough for lawyers and they use word not a plain text editor which doesnt make it easy to see the diffs. But yes ;)

Style and substance separation is easy and should be a requirement. Legal is pure text "programming" and what I mean is that the style of the text has zero bearing on the judicial process. The benefits of working at the proper level of abstraction compound. It enables tech like diffs and git, which then nicely solves a bunch of other problems as well. Using Word completely side-steps all those benefits. Sure, you get…

Of course this isn't and hasn't been true for quite some time. I'm the first to blast MS Word for being a total disaster (esp. templates, ie. style/substance separation, are bad) but it is no longer a locked-in platform. Even the docx format is only a zipped XML file. If you want, you can unpack the document file and put it into git. Thank you Open Document Foundation!

On top of that, all contemporary word processors I'm aware of have, of course, versioning with diffs. It is just different than git (or other programmer tools.) Just as you are using your tools of your trade and don't know much about MS Word, lawyers use their tools of their trade and don't know much about git. It's like saying that editing POs is superior to Trados, because for a programmer it is but a professional translator is going to tell you a different story.

(Of course, everybody everywhere should be using LaTeX for fine-looking documents in all circumstances. No argument here ;))

Re: Nota is a language for writing documents, like academic papers and blog posts

#92

Post by eviks » Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 8:48 AM UTC

mr_mitm wrote: post #83

dash2 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably that's true. But first, I don't know how to create a class file, or a template (if that is a LaTeX thing). And since I've never seen anyone else do this, I guess that most academics don't either. Second, my point isn't just about the specific issue, it's that this issue reveals how TeX thinks about the world. It thinks you want to spend your time writing TeX. No, I want to spend my time writing English. Here…

I understand your frustration. Maybe it helps to know where this problem comes from. TeX is extremely powerful and lets you create arbitrary documents. This is the first time I heard of quarto, but apparently it makes a lot of choices for you that you understandably don't really care about. Instead of developing quarto, one could have simply written a LaTeX class that defines a function like so: \newcommand{\image}[2…

> Instead of developing quarto, one could have simply written a LaTeX class that defines a function like so:

If it's so simple, why isn't there QuarTeX that does all of that and removes the extreme verbosity barrier?

Re: Nota is a language for writing documents, like academic papers and blog posts

#93

Post by johnchristopher » Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 8:54 AM UTC

> There are two main mediums for digital documents: PDFs and web pages.

cough docx cough

And yeah, it's a real problem for data portability and preservation. And no Librefoffice isn't up to the task (onlyoffice seems to do better).

Re: Nota is a language for writing documents, like academic papers and blog posts

#94

Post by eviks » Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 8:56 AM UTC

wcrichton wrote: post #46

Hi, Nota creator here. A high-level comment: After developing the initial prototype you see in the webpage, I've since gone back to the drawing board. I'm working on developing a firmer foundation for issues like: - How do you interleave content and computation? See: https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.04368 - How do different syntaxes make different document tasks easy, hard, or impossible? See: https://github.com/cognitive-…

> - How do different syntaxes make different document tasks easy, hard, or impossible?

That's a good idea, would be nice to optimize that instead of sticking to the poor decision of markdown to double asterisks for the more common bold formatting while also wasting another _ symbol in the process

Re: Nota is a language for writing documents, like academic papers and blog posts

#95

Post by manxman » Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 8:56 AM UTC

SanderNL wrote: post #77

manxman wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cause git ain’t user friendly enough for lawyers and they use word not a plain text editor which doesnt make it easy to see the diffs. But yes ;)

Style and substance separation is easy and should be a requirement. Legal is pure text "programming" and what I mean is that the style of the text has zero bearing on the judicial process. The benefits of working at the proper level of abstraction compound. It enables tech like diffs and git, which then nicely solves a bunch of other problems as well. Using Word completely side-steps all those benefits. Sure, you get…

You are correct. But this is a culture issue. Culturally legal folk don’t see what they do as programming so they use different tools and work their processes their way. This is advantageous to outsiders who see through this! ;)

Re: Nota is a language for writing documents, like academic papers and blog posts

#96

Post by cycomanic » Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 8:58 AM UTC

dash2 wrote: post #75

nanna wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the problem. If 99% of your documents need the same packages and formatting, then all you need to do in LaTeX is create a template (eg via Yasnippet in Emacs) or dump it all in a LaTeX class file and then import it in your frontmatter, and Bob's your uncle. There are many frustrating things about LaTeX but I don't see how this is one of them.

Probably that's true. But first, I don't know how to create a class file, or a template (if that is a LaTeX thing). And since I've never seen anyone else do this, I guess that most academics don't either. Second, my point isn't just about the specific issue, it's that this issue reveals how TeX thinks about the world. It thinks you want to spend your time writing TeX. No, I want to spend my time writing English. Here…

I can tell you as another academic i almost always get links and images wrong in Markdown (which of title URL is in square which in round brackets, forgetting the !, the conventions around file paths (some Markdown processors need file://...). Admittedly if I would write always one Markdown style I would get used to it, on the other hand I never get it wrong in latex and let's not even talk about how to do different alignment, captions and labels.

Re: Nota is a language for writing documents, like academic papers and blog posts

#97

Post by DemocracyFTW2 » Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 9:33 AM UTC

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #29

fbdab103 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TeX was definitely groundbreaking, but I consider it a product of its time. Far too much cleverness in macro expansions and weaving tricks to keep memory usage in check for what are now laughable limits. Missing far too many niceties in comparison to modern languages with more guardrails to protect yourself from silly mistakes. The only way I can write Latex is to heavily rely upon \input{} segments to keep isolated…

There are plenty of these markup languages. The reason none of them really challenge tex/latex in its own space, is that they don't aim to do what tex/latex does. Latex is "typographically-complete". Markdown and friends are explicitly not. HTML+CSS is. But what latex has is a reasonable enough syntax that a human can write it by hand, unlike HTML+CSS. Moreover, the syntax, though clunky [1] is designed, as much as p…

> what latex has is a reasonable enough syntax that a human can write it by hand, unlike HTML+CSS. Moreover, the syntax, though clunky [1] is designed, as much as possible, to not interfere with the content that the human is writing

I could not disagree more. LaTeX syntax is not 'clunky', it's a mess, and has intentionally been engineered right from the start to be clever rather than consistent. And it's not the syntax only, the obvious mess that is LaTeX's surface goes right on, right to the heart ("the guts" as TeXnicians prefer to say) of the machinery, where no concern is dealt with separately, and anything can influence and break everything else.

Hell you don't even get a semblance of sane text (string) processing or decent numerical computation. Yes, you can do it, in the way you could use a toothbrush or wet wipes to paint your house.

> Latex is "typographically-complete"

Yes as long as one is ready to ignore the fact that quite a few simple things are quite difficult to achieve in LaTeX, e.g. keeping lines the same height and keep register instead of jumping around whenever a superscript is encountered.

> The replacement for TeX/latex is never going to a simpler language. It is going to a language just as complex as latex.

The complexity of LaTeX is just in part due to the complexities of typesetting. It is complex because of an endless litany of bad design choices. HTML+CSS+JS gets a lot of flak for being too complex, but they pale in comparison. For example[1]:

In order to use numerical codepoints to write 東京, you can write any of:

    ^^^^6771 ^^^^4eac   
    \char"6771 \char"4EAC

The space between the entities is used to signal the end of the codepoint number, hence to write 東京 with a space you must use tricks, one of

    \char"6771{} \char"4EAC   
    \char"6771\ \char"4EAC

In this system, ^^5c represents the backslash. But, unlike reasonable systems which TeX is not one of, using numerical reference doesn't deactivate the backslash's special role as command indicator.

Compare this to XML / HTML 東京 which is a much more reasonable syntax, not any harder to write, and uses an explicit end-of-command marker instead of the 'clever' space which is highly problematic.

[1]: https://agiletribe.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/adding-unicode-c...

Re: Nota is a language for writing documents, like academic papers and blog posts

#98

Post by nanna » Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 9:37 AM UTC

mr_mitm wrote: post #83

dash2 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably that's true. But first, I don't know how to create a class file, or a template (if that is a LaTeX thing). And since I've never seen anyone else do this, I guess that most academics don't either. Second, my point isn't just about the specific issue, it's that this issue reveals how TeX thinks about the world. It thinks you want to spend your time writing TeX. No, I want to spend my time writing English. Here…

I understand your frustration. Maybe it helps to know where this problem comes from. TeX is extremely powerful and lets you create arbitrary documents. This is the first time I heard of quarto, but apparently it makes a lot of choices for you that you understandably don't really care about. Instead of developing quarto, one could have simply written a LaTeX class that defines a function like so: \newcommand{\image}[2…

Re: Nota is a language for writing documents, like academic papers and blog posts

#99

Post by TylerE » Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 9:37 AM UTC

manxman wrote: post #57

wcrichton wrote: post #46

Hi, Nota creator here. A high-level comment: After developing the initial prototype you see in the webpage, I've since gone back to the drawing board. I'm working on developing a firmer foundation for issues like: - How do you interleave content and computation? See: https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.04368 - How do different syntaxes make different document tasks easy, hard, or impossible? See: https://github.com/cognitive-…

Just my two cents - Not sure the language you choose matters as much as making the API usable by a wide audience. Sure if performance is a real issue then rust makes more sense than JS but I’m not sure that’s going to be hugely meaningful in most use cases. I’ve never been a fan of Latex despite writing some mammoth documents over the years. Latex always felt like a beast for academics not for business. Yet there’s o…

Try context over latex. Much more “gimme what I ask for” than being super academic about subsubsubsubheaders.

Re: Nota is a language for writing documents, like academic papers and blog posts

#100

Post by nologic01 » Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 9:38 AM UTC

The problem with any new initiative in this space is that it enters a field that is more than well populated. It doesn't matter if existing solutions are less than perfect.

Its like walking into a historic European city that has architecture going back millennia and arguing for a great new building design. Greenfield space is scarce and people will not just demolish old structures to try something new. They need to sense overwhelming advantage.

The analogy gives some hints as to what needs to happen for a new approach to take hold. In building construction, massively better use of space was one example: For better or worse, use of steel and reinforced concrete opened the vertical dimension and the rest is history.

Is there such an unexplored dimension that could entice people into yet another document format to "improve" on ascii, restructuredText, wikitext, markdown, tex/latex, asciidoc, html etc. etc.?

The stock answer is some sort of semantic hypertext infrastructure. The original vision is still unfulfilled. If we assume that the walled gardens of today are just a bad nightmare that will pass away, in a re-decentralized web one would need modern, user-friendly and empowering document writing infrastructure.

But there might be other dimensions that would elevate document writing and sharing to new heights. The beauty of innovation is that it is not bound by conventional rules and pre-existing wisdom.