I broke my leg skydiving a few months ago. The EMTs gave me ketamine and fentanyl before they loaded me up in the ambulance. That stuff sent me to another dimension! I never want to go back there. Was pretty terrifying to be honest. Maybe a low dose could help with depression? I think a high dose would probably scare people and they wouldn't want to do it again.
Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope
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Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope
#92[dead]
Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope
#93Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…
So you think the effects lie at the conceptual/existential plane of our brains rather than the neurobiological one?
Why not either? Or both?
Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your comment seems to ignore the main point of the article: that the placebo group did actually have life-changing resolution of their depression symptoms.
I'm not sure I see a contradiction. This is compatible with the established idea that you can have transcendent insight without drugs, and with the equally-established idea of suggestion as one of the principal mechanisms behind placebo effects. A cohort was put in a situation that facilitated reflection upon life in a closed setting; that's exactly what I'm suggesting is helpful. See also: "you're not anxious; you'r…
Agreed, if anything this placebo finding supports your idea that the experience mediates the improvement more than the chemical itself.
I once attended a talk by a neuroscientist at UCSF, Adam Gazzaley, that really helped me see what the future of medicine could look like if we appreciated the power of experience, and more importantly if we could measure and then alter said experience in a realtime closed-loop system. My takeaway was that one day we might think of blasting our synapses with SSRIs or Adderall similarly to civil war era surgeons...the bone saw does prevent gangrene, but in a such an inefficient way.
Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
Much of the benefit of psychedelics is the introspection , which you can do sober as well (although the depth of the reflection is magnified and qualitatively different while tripping). This is confirmed by the linked study (which shows that placebo-ketamine is also very effective).
Many psychedelic-era personas expressed this sentiment as well: you don't need psychedelic drugs to reach that state, you could also spend 10 years practicing meditation daily. This view ignores the major application of these substances. Ketamine-induced self-therapy is accessible instantly and acts as a major reset. When you are experiencing long-term depression and/or anxiety, the advice to "just meditate" or do de…
Meditation/introspection and a depressive state are not the same thing. Calling that dangerous is an overreaction IMO.
Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope
#96Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…
Simple size of 1, but you're correct in how a heroic dose psilocybin trip completely cured my existential depression, to the extent I can't even relate to the struggles of my past self.
It certainly FELT to be a property of the transcendent experience and not a biological side effect of the substance.
Being blasted out into the infinite space of all possible chaotic realities but being able to successfully "crawl back" to THIS reality as an oasis / point of stability was a life changing experience. Although it was what you'd otherwise describe as a "bad trip", it flipped a switch in my brain from "existence is pointless" to "existence is a miracle."
Haven't felt existential dread since.
Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope
#97Related to the psychological vs. physiological discussion: I can say with confidence that the first time I did ecstasy changed how I look at the world. We went for a walk barefoot on warm pavement and it was the most wonderful thing I ever felt. I realized on a visceral level that so much of our personal happiness is based on how we look at things, not what happens to us. I don't know if I got any chemical benefit fr…
Honestly the only thing extasy did for me was let me rave for hours to electronic music at clubs. It also opened the door for other chemical drugs which led to benders and hangovers that were so bad people who only drink alcohol have no idea are even possible.
Granted, I never did it in a quiet "therapeutic" environment, I would have thought of it as a waste because I considered the music and dancing an integral part of the experience, it's a pretty recreational and hedonistic substance after all.
Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope
#98Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…
Simple size of 1, but you're correct in how a heroic dose psilocybin trip completely cured my existential depression, to the extent I can't even relate to the struggles of my past self. It certainly FELT to be a property of the transcendent experience and not a biological side effect of the substance. Being blasted out into the infinite space of all possible chaotic realities but being able to successfully "crawl bac…
If you’d had a crazy life experience that took you to the edge without said product, let’s say a full on mountaineering epic that bought close to the edge, would that remain in your consciousness and alter your being? Perhaps but data would suggest not or it has limited efficacy.
There is something within these molecules that combine experiences and some change to alter awareness.
And you don’t need to mountaineer
Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope
#99Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…
> Importantly, this tracks with what we know about the protective effects of things like religiosity against depression
I always took the mechanism to be community, that sort of thing. I guess if you're right we'd expect Pentacostals to be protected more than Lutherans, etc.? Do we have any idea what data is out there that might be able to disentangle this sort of question?
Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agree. I have heard stories of people who “had one treatment and never smoked/put their elbows on the dinner table ever again.” My experiences seemed to benefit more from watching David Attenborough and feeling a connection to life. I’d interpret the dad of a family of mountain lions as an analogue of my dad, etc. Seeing events as taking place in a dissociated context. All that introspection is what I found useful ab…
That's not silly at all. Like the other guy who posted, connecting back to "life" is pretty important. My family committed to this at a very extreme level in 2020 and we fulfilled it in April 2021. Our lives have been changed for the better in so many ways!
I think that is the point: it helps us understand what life is. Aka absolutely incredible.
Like exercise can make you feel fantastic, these experiences ground you in the reality of existence.