Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education • Hacker News Board

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#91

Post by HDThoreaun » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:09 PM UTC

hospadar wrote: post #87

etempleton wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US it used to be more acceptable to put students in classes based on where they were academically and in terms of behavior. Truly disruptive kids were also usually suspended until eventually being expelled. Neither approach is considered appropriate anymore. It was a central thesis of No Child Left Behind, which is/was nice in theory, but not in practice. Now schools are data obsessed. Bad metrics like suspens…

> The reality is that if you want good schools you need to cut your losses with the worst behaving kids. This kind of attitude is a wide-open door for racist and classist attitudes to penalize kids of color, kids from poor homes, kids with unsafe or unstable home situations. Suspending and expelling kids almost always makes things worse for those kids. There are HUGE racial and gender disparities in the rates of susp…

There are huge racial and gender disparities in all sorts of things. More than half of black children are in single parent households compared to 20% of white children. You can't just look at racial outcomes and determine discrimination without asking whether priorities and choices are also different between the groups.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#92

Post by red-iron-pine » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:10 PM UTC

gustavus wrote: post #79

Spinnaker_ wrote: post #8

I think this can be misleading in the same way some charter school results are. The easiest way to improve a school's results isn't to improve the education provided, it's to get rid of the worst performing kids. Charter schools do this by various selection effects, and artificial barriers, like ending at noon on a Wednesday. So the only kids who go there have two parents, one who probably is stay at home and can pic…

> The same type of thing is in play in military schools. There will be few-to-no kids of poor single moms. All the kids will be well fed and groomed and socialized. I grew up near a military base, and that describes very very few people. > no kids of poor single moms I'd suggest taking a look at what the military pays before you make the claim no poor. As for single moms it turns out that divorce is a big problem and…

> I'd suggest taking a look at what the military pays before you make the claim no poor....All the kids will be well fed

to this point, there are a lot of military families on food stamps.

plenty of hillbillys and hoodrats. plenty of bad areas near military bases, too.

but living on base or around base leads to a pretty strong monoculture. you also have a motivated cadre of military spouses -- who are often nurses and teachers -- and who often have to work hard to get jobs at a local school or hospital. you often get qualified teachers and nurses far exceeding the level you'd normally find in the rural areas near bases.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#93

Post by relaxing » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:10 PM UTC

gustavus wrote: post #79

Spinnaker_ wrote: post #8

I think this can be misleading in the same way some charter school results are. The easiest way to improve a school's results isn't to improve the education provided, it's to get rid of the worst performing kids. Charter schools do this by various selection effects, and artificial barriers, like ending at noon on a Wednesday. So the only kids who go there have two parents, one who probably is stay at home and can pic…

> The same type of thing is in play in military schools. There will be few-to-no kids of poor single moms. All the kids will be well fed and groomed and socialized. I grew up near a military base, and that describes very very few people. > no kids of poor single moms I'd suggest taking a look at what the military pays before you make the claim no poor. As for single moms it turns out that divorce is a big problem and…

Now do the same for the underperforming kids in an underperforming school.

> I'd suggest taking a look at what the military pays before you make the claim no poor.

Less than public assistance?

> As for single moms it turns out that divorce is a big problem

At least your divorced military ex-wife has a better chance of actually collecting alimony and child support.

> I'll give you that can be the case, if the MLM and the 30% interest on the new Dodge Charger didn't take all the money.

Think predatory finance and scams doesn't exist off-base?

> It turns out that sending parents out of a child's life for long periods of time can cause lots of behavior issues

More than experiencing housing insecurity, food insecurity, and never having that second parental figure in the first place?

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#94

Post by stonogo » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:12 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #71

Spinnaker_ wrote: post #8

I think this can be misleading in the same way some charter school results are. The easiest way to improve a school's results isn't to improve the education provided, it's to get rid of the worst performing kids. Charter schools do this by various selection effects, and artificial barriers, like ending at noon on a Wednesday. So the only kids who go there have two parents, one who probably is stay at home and can pic…

Related, USAA was originally formed to offer insurance and later banking to military officers and their families. (They since expanded some offerings to enlisted and to civilians.) It turns out that selecting for military officers has a beneficial impact on auto losses, putting USAA in a good position to offer competitive rates and outstanding service.

USAA also isn't a typical insurance underwriter. It's essentially a giant self-insurance co-op, and for decades they would just terminate service if they decided you were outside their risk window, whether you otherwise qualified or not.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#95

Post by econonut » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:13 PM UTC

HDThoreaun wrote: post #81

femiagbabiaka wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me you only follow policy in the US without telling me: exhibit one. The public school “experiment” has been purposefully sabotaged is more like it.

My district spends $29k per student. More than almost any other in the world. Yet some of its schools are so bad that a quarter of high schoolers opted out. It's not about funding. It's an overwhelmingly blue area, politicians are not purposefully sabotaging the schools. The government is just utterly incompetent, and worse, corrupt. And unfortunately many of the students are from households that don't emphasize the…

Your implication that conservative politicians are more likely to be sabotaging schools than democratic politicians is hilarious. I'm quite certain both sides are equally adept at throwing good money after bad so long as the present policy they pursue is fashionable and focus group tested. They're incompetent, as you say, or, perhaps, they just aren't willing to risk their own political future because the changes that might make a difference will be unpopular with voters.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#96

Post by red-iron-pine » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:13 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #71

Spinnaker_ wrote: post #8

I think this can be misleading in the same way some charter school results are. The easiest way to improve a school's results isn't to improve the education provided, it's to get rid of the worst performing kids. Charter schools do this by various selection effects, and artificial barriers, like ending at noon on a Wednesday. So the only kids who go there have two parents, one who probably is stay at home and can pic…

Related, USAA was originally formed to offer insurance and later banking to military officers and their families. (They since expanded some offerings to enlisted and to civilians.) It turns out that selecting for military officers has a beneficial impact on auto losses, putting USAA in a good position to offer competitive rates and outstanding service.

not impressive pay, but decent, and regularly on the 1st and 15th. also adjusted for inflation, and has some other unique market facets, like having younger folks being generally fit and healthy, and older, retired military folks getting pensions.

compare that with your average career bartender or construction worker

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#97

Post by femiagbabiaka » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:15 PM UTC

HDThoreaun wrote: post #81

femiagbabiaka wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me you only follow policy in the US without telling me: exhibit one. The public school “experiment” has been purposefully sabotaged is more like it.

My district spends $29k per student. More than almost any other in the world. Yet some of its schools are so bad that a quarter of high schoolers opted out. It's not about funding. It's an overwhelmingly blue area, politicians are not purposefully sabotaging the schools. The government is just utterly incompetent, and worse, corrupt. And unfortunately many of the students are from households that don't emphasize the…

Spends 29k on what? School infrastructure is crumbling around the country. Teachers are paid so little most of them could get a raise working at Costco. This country has engendered in every sector that matters a fleet of middle managers and administrators whose purpose is to extract value and provide little. Maybe we can start by trimming that away, something teachers have been saying for years.

And as for the overwhelmingly blue thing, that’s another simplistic narrative. Substantive politics in the US has very little to do with the party that you vote for, as the parties agree on 99% of the particulars, if not the rhetoric. Illinois is one of the bluest states in America and Chicago one of the bluest cities, and yet Rahm Emmanuel ran under a dem regime one of the most infamous regimes of city-wide austerity in recent memory. The Daleys were out and out corrupt racists. I could go on.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#98

Post by relaxing » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:15 PM UTC

ForOldHack wrote: post #80

Most very unfortunately, I have to reluctantly agree, but for reasons that are completely hidden: My CS program design teacher, would do three things: He would write the subjects he would cover on the board, and then cover them, and secondly he would check them off. When ever a question would come up from a past lecture, he would ask if someone else had the notes to answer the question, well. Guess who kept the best…

It would be great if you wrote some more on that 3 step process and how it worked - sounds really interesting.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#99

Post by lukeschlather » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:16 PM UTC

HDThoreaun wrote: post #84

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Charter schools kicking out problematic students isn't some loophole, it's the main point, and it absolutely can improve the education for those that remain. If you kick out the problematic students, the only students you have left are easy to teach non-problematic students. > and it absolutely can improve the education for those that remain. It isn't mysterious: you selected the best students, so your results will…

> It isn't mysterious: you selected the best students, so your results will be the best. You're implying that individual results don't change by grouping the good students together. In your vision the good students stay good and the bad stay bad. I don't agree. The good students become great by surrounding them with other good students.

If that's true then the converse is also true: bad students become bad by surrounding them with other bad students.

And the charter school gets to take credit for the "good" outcome while the public school gets blamed for the bad outcome that is a direct result of the good outcome.

Which, if we accept your premise, suggests that the charter schools aren't providing any net benefit, they're just taking credit. If this is really the way we want to operate things we could just do it in public schools.

Re: Schools for children of military achieve results rarely seen in public education

#100

Post by red-iron-pine » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 7:16 PM UTC

eYrKEC2 wrote: post #13

Spinnaker_ wrote: post #8

I think this can be misleading in the same way some charter school results are. The easiest way to improve a school's results isn't to improve the education provided, it's to get rid of the worst performing kids. Charter schools do this by various selection effects, and artificial barriers, like ending at noon on a Wednesday. So the only kids who go there have two parents, one who probably is stay at home and can pic…

Another factor is that the military parents have cleared a bar of pre-enlistment testing (ASVAB?) that has strong correlations with IQ testing.

maybe on the officer level, but you don't need a particularly high ASVAB score to drive a truck or be a cook.