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2023 Nobel Prize in economics awarded to Claudia Goldin

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Re: 2023 Nobel Prize in economics awarded to Claudia Goldin

#91
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s a pathetic marketing scheme by a fake science. What makes a science "real" and what makes it "fake"?

Falsifiability, controllability. Most hard sciences study and explain phenomena in an isolated and controlled system. You have well defined input parameters, some starting context, and you observe the output over time. You change your input and/or the context and you note the change in the output. Because the system is controlled and isolated, the experiment, if repeated by a different observer, should in theory give…

What was the controllable with Eddington?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddington_experiment

Einstein's models made a prediction, people 'tested' that prediction in Nature, and it turned out accurate. General theory has made other predictions, and empirical observations have found them to be accurate as well.

Plenty of "real" science is/was done outside of controlled experiments in a lab.

A phenomena was going to happen (e.g., tax law changes): some economic models predicted X would happen, and some predicted Y would. We can see which were more accurate and which were falsified:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_experiment

Rotterdam is running an experiment right now with regards to real estate markets and regulation:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRqZBuu_Ers

* https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/06/buy-to-let-ban-is-good-for-...

Every time the Federal Reserve makes a policy change there are people running their models on what will happen, and if their models are right they make a lot of money, and if they're wrong they lose a lot of money:

> But why was Gross betting so heavily against Treasuries? Brad DeLong tries to rationalize[1] Gross’s behavior in terms of a coherent story about an impending U.S. recovery, which would lift us out of the liquidity trap. But Gross wasn’t saying anything like that. Instead, he was claiming that the Fed’s asset purchases — QE2 — were holding rates down, and warned that the impending spike in rates when QE2 ended would derail recovery.

> So why did he believe all that? It all comes down, I’d argue, to liquidity trap denial.

> Since 2008 the basic logic of the economic situation has been that the private sector is trying to run a huge surplus, and the public sector isn’t willing to run a corresponding deficit. The result is an economy awash in desired savings with nowhere to go. This in turn means that budget deficits aren’t competing with private borrowing, and therefore need not drive up interest rates. This isn’t hindsight; it’s what I and others have been saying since the very beginning[2].

* https://archive.nytimes.com/krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/0...

If people don't want to bother accepting the results of these experiments and continue following models for reason other than accuracy, that's hardly the fault of the field of study. See the movie Behind the Curve on folks doing perfectly valid experiments and completely ignoring the results:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behind_the_Curve

Clip (ensure unmuted):

* https://old.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/sjeoqd/flatearthe...

* https://twitter.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1559907302483935237

Re: 2023 Nobel Prize in economics awarded to Claudia Goldin

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

To me the "economics is not real science" people is much like the "evolution is just a theory" crowd. When you don't like the results, it is comforting to find a way to not believe it. I have a pretty serious physics education, and in my older days I find Economics to be the most fascinating science. It makes much of society understandable in ays tha were not possible before. That said, the sub field of Macro Economi…

I confess to being one of those people who doesn't believe Darwinian evolution explains the origin of species (let alone the origin of life). Of course, I see myself as taking an entirely empirical and scientific perspective, but I do understand that those who approach the question with a blind faith in a materialist worldview (and buy into a "materialism of the gaps" perspective) will not be able to accept any empirical evidence or scientific argument that contradicts their presuppositions.

Re: 2023 Nobel Prize in economics awarded to Claudia Goldin

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> albeit perhaps lacking some of the formal methods and practices that other branches of engineering tend to have. I'd like to point out that this depends heavily on your institution. My CS program had a class literally called "Formal methods", and every student was required to learn formal proofs before their first programming-heavy class (namely, "Data Structures I").

> I'd like to point out that this depends heavily on your institution. My CS program had a class literally called "Formal methods", and every student was required to learn formal proofs before their first programming-heavy class (namely, "Data Structures I"). But compare usage of formal methods and practices in software engineers in a startup (or even well-established company) with engineers designing a bridge, for e…

My degree is in "Computer Science", NOT "Software engineering" and for that and other reasons I am against calling myself a "Software engineer"

I'm not an engineer. I am a subject matter expert employed as a generalist.

Re: 2023 Nobel Prize in economics awarded to Claudia Goldin

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted, the merit of some of the awards is questionable, but I think e.g.: Nash's work on game theory or Kahneman/Tvservky's on the pyschology of judgment definitely fall under the umbrella of "science".

Arguably Goldin winning for pure empirical work falls under science just as much or more than the Khaneman prize

No, a newly named award shouldn't really have any existing clout associated with it, and can make it's own reputation. The Turing award is not treated like a nobel prize by pretty much anyone, though it is respected.

Economics decided that kind of thing, say a "Smith award" wouldn't get them enough clout, so better to abuse a brand name for it's value. How classic.

Re: 2023 Nobel Prize in economics awarded to Claudia Goldin

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

What aspects of the economic studies makes it a pseudoscience? Highly empirical, sure, but so does modern machine learning.

economists proudly ignore real world data. They care about their models, even when they are obviously wrong.

Milton Friedman said "Truly important and significant hypotheses will be found to have 'assumptions' that are wildly inaccurate descriptive representations of reality, and, in general, the more significant the theory, the more unrealistic the assumptions."

Re: 2023 Nobel Prize in economics awarded to Claudia Goldin

#96

She wrote a paper on blind auditions, this gained a lot of media attention, but as a lot of her work it was quite exaggerated see e.g [0] [0] https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/05/11/did-blind-...

Perhaps worthwhile to point out in this context, her work was exaggerated by others, not by herself.

Re: 2023 Nobel Prize in economics awarded to Claudia Goldin

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably Goldin winning for pure empirical work falls under science just as much or more than the Khaneman prize

No, a newly named award shouldn't really have any existing clout associated with it, and can make it's own reputation. The Turing award is not treated like a nobel prize by pretty much anyone, though it is respected. Economics decided that kind of thing, say a "Smith award" wouldn't get them enough clout, so better to abuse a brand name for it's value. How classic.

Im sorry but to a normal person the Fields medal or Turing award is treated the exact same as the Nobel prize in whatever discipline.

Re: 2023 Nobel Prize in economics awarded to Claudia Goldin

#98
post #4

> Goldin showed that female participation in the labour market did not have an upward trend over this entire period, but instead forms a U-shaped curve. The participation of married women decreased with the transition from an agrarian to an industrial society in the early nineteenth century, but then started to increase with the growth of the service sector in the early twentieth century. Goldin explained this patter…

Intuitive today, but perhaps not in days past. One criticism of the modern Nobel is that they are being given to old people for work done decades previous. Rather than spur promising scientists to extend good work, the Nobel is now more of a lifetime achievement award for people nearing the end of distinguished careers. There are exceptions, but this trend is likely tied to much of modern science taking decades betwe…

>Rather than spur promising scientists to extend good work, the Nobel is now more of a lifetime achievement award for people nearing the end of distinguished careers.

It makes sense in economics. You need time to be proven right. Physicists and chemists can produce a bunch of equations that we can plug in and get the results, or perform an experiment to demonstrate. Social science can only be proven retrospectively.

Re: 2023 Nobel Prize in economics awarded to Claudia Goldin

#99

She wrote a paper on blind auditions, this gained a lot of media attention, but as a lot of her work it was quite exaggerated see e.g [0] [0] https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/05/11/did-blind-...

Perhaps worthwhile to point out in this context, her work was exaggerated by others, not by herself.

The quotes from her article suggest otherwise.

Claudia Goldin and Cecilia Rouse:

> Although some of our estimates have large standard errors and there is one persistent effect in the opposite direction, the weight of the evidence suggests that the blind audition procedure fostered impartiality in hiring and increased the proportion women in symphony orchestras.

> …

> The weight of the evidence, however, is what we find most persuasive and what we have emphasized. The point estimates, moreover, are almost all economically significant.

Andrew Gelman:

> This is not very impressive at all. Some fine words but the punchline seems to be that the data are too noisy to form any strong conclusions. And the bit about the point estimates being “economically significant”—that doesn’t mean anything at all. That’s just what you get when you have a small sample and noisy data, you get noisy estimates so you can get big numbers.

Re: 2023 Nobel Prize in economics awarded to Claudia Goldin

#100
post #15

> During the twentieth century, women’s education levels continuously increased, and in most high-income countries they are now substantially higher than for men. > However, Goldin has shown that the bulk of this earnings difference is now between [sic] and women in the same occupation, and that it largely arises with the birth of the first child. Interesting situation developing if the main effort is in educating wo…

A more egalitarian solution would be longer paid parental leave and earlier free childcare. Are women leaving jobs due to a genuine desire to be a full-time parent, or are women leaving jobs because the alternative is putting a three-month-old in prohibitively expensive daycare?
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