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Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

oag.ca.gov

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Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#91

Post by musicale »

nodesocket wrote: post #43

Laws like this aren't going to make services and products any cheaper. They'll just shift around and hide the fees into the core price. Sure, that's better I suppose, but end of the day still costs the same amount. Not convinced at all this is a area policy makers should be focusing on.

It bans price dripping, where you go through 6 checkout screens and each one adds a new fee.

Car dealerships are also notorious for the practice of continually adding fees after you agree to buy for the advertised price.

It also makes it harder for companies (phone companies, cable companies and ISPs, utilities, etc.) to enact stealth rate increases by adding bogus fees to your monthly bill.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#92

Post by kelnos »

guitarbill wrote: post #58
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #50

Comments that are bringing up taxes (which are totally exempted by this bill anyway) and tips (with one small caveat) are completely missing the point. You can have a debate about how to display those items on a price list, but everyone knows about them and they are expected. The whole point of this bill is to prevent bait-and-switch, where loads of unknown or variable fees are tacked on after the price is initially…

Disagree. Bait and switch is one symptom of the issue that the price is not what you'll pay. Which to be clear is awful. And that matters if you have to be careful about spending. Also, "everyone knows about them", really? If it's so easy to "know" the local tax rate for various things, why isn't it easy to label them? See the rest of the world, where even young kids can go shopping. If you give them 5 , and the item…

I always find it weird that people (usually non-Americans) get so worked up about how US prices generally exclude taxes. I agree that it would be better and clearer if listed prices were tax-included. But they're usually not in the US. That's just how it is. Chill out, get over it, it's really not that big a deal.

This particular new law is not attempting to address that. Maybe it should. But maybe doing so would be biting off too much, and its sponsors believe it would never pass if they tried that.

The purpose of this law is much less ambitious, but that's fine. Incremental improvements are better than no improvements. I am pleased that now hotels can't spring daily "resort fees" on guests after they show up for their reservation. That sort of thing.

If you live in the United States, you know that a) listed prices rarely include tax, and b) for an annoyingly large number of things, you will be expected to add a tip. If you live here and don't know that, you are not particularly well-equipped to operate in the real world, and you should learn. If you don't live here but are visiting, it's unfortunate that you might not know about these quirks of American capitalism, but the law is not really aimed at you. Sorry, but our quality-of-life laws are tailored to people who live here first and foremost.

> If it's so easy to "know" the local tax rate for various things, why isn't it easy to label them?

It's not about being easy. It's about stupid psychological effects. If I list my price tax-inclusive, and my competitor lists theirs without the tax (but ultimately will charge the same price as I will), my competitor will get more business than I will. It's dumb, but that's human psychology for you.

> See the rest of the world, where even young kids can go shopping.

Young kids can shop here just as well. They just have an extra step to learn. They deal with it just fine; kids are smart and adaptable.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#94

Post by jen20 »

nodesocket wrote: post #43

Laws like this aren't going to make services and products any cheaper. They'll just shift around and hide the fees into the core price. Sure, that's better I suppose, but end of the day still costs the same amount. Not convinced at all this is a area policy makers should be focusing on.

Putting the fees in the core price is a win for everyone except scumbags who think it is ok to scam people.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#95

Post by shortcake27 »

thinkerswell wrote: post #36
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Note the California bill specifically exempts taxes from this "upfront pricing" requirement. The reason I think listing taxes separately is OK is because (a) it is not something that the business itself has any choice over, and (b) all businesses have to tax the same for equivalent services. I think listing the taxes separately serves an important purpose to remind the purchaser about where your payments…

Agreed. It’s also a reminder to the voter that these sales tax exist and a reminder they can be lowered or eliminated.

Virtually every other country lists prices inclusive of sales tax. People are still aware of sales tax.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#96

Post by lpolovets »

olliej wrote: post #60
lpolovets wrote: post #53

From the article linked in the first paragraph: "The legislation — the first bill of its type across the state — would prohibit advertising a price for a good or service that does not include all required charges other than taxes and fees imposed by a government. Why are taxes and govt fees exempt? This reeks of "rules for thee but not for me." Either to goal is to avoid misleading customers with low advertised price…

A classic example in the US is sales tax. Those are taxes determined by the final sale price which can vary depending on state, county, or city. More importantly because those fees aren't controlled by the company doing the bait and switch it's the same for every company. This bill is very clear that the target is "prices" that reject parts of the price that are entirely set by the person selling the goods or service…

I hear you, but the press release explicitly said that the goal of the bill is to prevent companies from attracting customers with a misleadingly low price and then charging a higher price. How are government fees and taxes -- especially industry-specific government fees that consumers may not be aware of -- not the exact thing that this bill stands against?

If anything, this just encourages lobbying and corruption. If you have a restaurant, you can't just covertly charge a 5% worker benefit fee. But you could if you're part of a restaurant lobby that turns that 5% worker benefit fee into a 5% restaurant tax that benefits restaurant workers!

Independent of the bill's goal, I also think that seeing all govt fees and taxes upfront might be a useful exercise in California and elsewhere. When fees are hidden, people forget about them and don't evaluate them. But if they are front and center, then that would hopefully make politicians more accountable. For example, the California train project has spent something like $10b so far and there's nothing to really show for it. And that money came from somewhere, but it's easy to forget about that if you're not reminded constantly. But if every driver in California paid $1 extra on every gas bill for the last 20 years for a "train tax" that was on the receipt, then maybe people would hold their government more accountable. (This is an apolitical comment: caring more can mean cancelling the train project, or funding it 3x more. Whatever constituents think is best.)

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#97

Post by kelnos »

PeterStuer wrote: post #82
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #50

Comments that are bringing up taxes (which are totally exempted by this bill anyway) and tips (with one small caveat) are completely missing the point. You can have a debate about how to display those items on a price list, but everyone knows about them and they are expected. The whole point of this bill is to prevent bait-and-switch, where loads of unknown or variable fees are tacked on after the price is initially…

Traveling to the US is for most Europeans a mightmare on this point. We are used to have a price that includes the taxes, services, delivery, wathever, you pay this much for this good ot service, and not an anachronistic 'tip' incantation for which you have to be tuned in to the latest local vibes so as not to unintentionaly run afoul of some obfuscated social rules, or you have to wip out your phone to google tax ra…

"Everyone knows" is indeed US-centric in this case, but when we are talking about the state of things where it relates to a US state's law, the US-centric view is entirely fine and should be expected.

If we were talking about, say, a French law, I would expect the default assumption to be French standards and customs.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#98

Post by Ekaros »

mrktf wrote: post #72
xmprt wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes are set at a multiple levels (federal, state, district, and city) so it's pretty much impossible to show the post tax price on the label. Hidden fees are a completely different issue.

That argument about multiple level taxes is always beyond me. Taxes are not stock market which changes in unknown direction constantly, they are always known at the worst weeks before implementation. In my eastern European country even biggest supermarkets can change all labels overnight (I even bet they can can do at least twice daily - albeit with here and there confusions when there multiple labels for same good)

And western European one have e-ink price tags. And one time there was wrong item on a tag. So I asked the person filling the shelf for help. He read the tag and item and behold in 5 minutes it updated itself to correct item and price...

It is not like these shops hop hourly between taxes...

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#99

Post by jrflowers »

krab wrote: post #14

> Hidden fees are fees in which a seller uses an artificially low headline price to attract a customer and usually either discloses additional required fees in smaller print, or reveals additional unavoidable charges later in the buying process. Like tips?

> Like tips?

This is a good point. When I go to a coffee shop and order a latte I am buying a latte and the appreciation of the person that makes it. If they think I’m a dick it renders my coffee undrinkable and the comfort in knowing that I’m liked should be free.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#100

Post by rapht »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #29
adasdasdas wrote: post #7

I don't know why we can't just force everyone to show post tax/fees price upfront. It's complete bullshit that every restaurant bill comes with 3 different taxes.

I disagree. Note the California bill specifically exempts taxes from this "upfront pricing" requirement. The reason I think listing taxes separately is OK is because (a) it is not something that the business itself has any choice over, and (b) all businesses have to tax the same for equivalent services. I think listing the taxes separately serves an important purpose to remind the purchaser about where your payments…

> The reason I think listing taxes separately is OK is because (a) it is not something that the business itself has any choice over and (b) all businesses have to tax the same for equivalent services.

(a) is really just like the price of basically all of utilities, and all the indirect taxes paid on salaries... the only difference is that they are not directly calculated on turnover. Should we also break that out? (b) is actually an argument in favour of integrating the taxes in the prices : there's no difference between businesses, thus no need to bother the consumers with it -- in the end, they will pay something that includes the taxes, wherever they go.

> I'd be OK with listing taxes up front (but I will say that restaurants I've been to always highlight any mandatory fees besides normal sales tax on the menu) but I'm absolutely in favor of breaking out the cost of government services on the bill.

You mean like basically everywhere in the world where your receipt does show "of which VAT rate A% : X, rate B% : Y, Special Tax: Z" ?

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