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Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

nytimes.com

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Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#91

Post by havnagiggle »

lolinder wrote: post #73
havnagiggle wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Microsoft is in the game of being a big business, and demonstrably is not in the group that needs a fair market to thrive. MS is/was willing to make the same deals as Google for defaults, it's just Google valued it more. They should be in hot seat #2. Smaller companies like DDG, Brave, Kagi are the ones trying to build narrow, competitive businesses in the search and browser space. If those are struggling due…

Microsoft's size is part of what makes their testimony so valuable to the government here. If even Microsoft's CEO is willing to testify under oath that Google's practices make breaking into search impossible, that's extremely relevant to the case. Leaving that testimony out because there are smaller companies that are also hurt would be foolish. The ideal witness makeup would be composed of a combination of large, m…

I'll be honest and say your interpretation is probably right, and that's how the NY times reporter interpreted it. However, my strong anti-MS + all conglomerates (i.e., bias that would probably would have disqualified me from being on the jury heh) sees a guy only concerned about MS stock, taking a hypocritical jab at his direct competitor.

I am mostly disappointed that it indicates to me (possibly incorrectly) that the DOJ is not simultaneously pursuing MS for related practices. Maybe it's not in the ads space, but MS is not without their own anti-competitive issues. Or maybe they are, and are able to walk and chew gum. But DOJ asking MS to be a witness is just not a good sign to me.

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#92

Post by AraceliHarker »

26fingies wrote: post #70
havnagiggle wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Microsoft is in the game of being a big business, and demonstrably is not in the group that needs a fair market to thrive. MS is/was willing to make the same deals as Google for defaults, it's just Google valued it more. They should be in hot seat #2. Smaller companies like DDG, Brave, Kagi are the ones trying to build narrow, competitive businesses in the search and browser space. If those are struggling due…

Does microsoft testifying preclude any of those companies from testifying?

If it is true that people are reluctant to change their default search engine, as Nadella says, doesn't that mean all Windows users are using Bing?

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#93

Post by jojobas »

throwaway892238 wrote: post #62
Ferret7446 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's more like, if you and your neighbor have competing businesses, and you were accused of fraud, your neighbor testifies that you're an asshole. It's an opinion from someone who hates you/benefits from convicting you. Now, if they had actual evidence it'd be different (I assume not from the title, article is paywalled).

> It's an opinion from someone who hates you/benefits from convicting you. Hence why the opposing side gets the opportunity to cross-examine the witness, and why it would be a really bad idea to put forward a witness who clearly has a grudge against the accused. In cross you just show they have a grudge and now their testimony is suspect. > Now, if they had actual evidence it'd be different It is actual evidence. I d…

By "actual evidence" people usually mean evidence that can't be discarded as easily as testimony.

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#94

Post by cptskippy »

bettercallsalad wrote: post #27

I am not following these testimonies in anti-trust cases where they have a competitor of Google testify against Google. Isn’t testifying all about presenting evidence? If I am accused of theft in a criminal court and my arch rival is brought for testimony against me, it doesn’t sound like a fair process to me. Of course if it’s a substantiated material it would make sense but otherwise it doesn’t just makes sense at…

> Google as a search engine is far better than Bing and that’s just a fact.

I have been using DDG for several years now and honestly can't stand Google's results anymore. It seems like you can no longer search for an exact term and at every opportunity they try to slip in a merchant selling something as a result.

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#95

Post by AraceliHarker »

cmcaleer wrote: post #58
havnagiggle wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I am not confused about getting testimony from competitors. I am very interested in hearing from companies that probably have legitimate grievances: DDG, Kagi, Brave, etc. MS is not among those companies.

Why shouldn't MS be in that group? Google pay far above the mark to be default search in FF, and own the most popular web browser.

Because Microsoft is doing worse things than what they are accusing Google of, such as forcing users to use Edge and Bing in Windows. Also, considering the fact that Bing's market share did not increase even when Microsoft signed a contract with Apple to make Bing the default search engine on iPhones, and the testimony that Apple did not acquire Bing because of its poor quality, Microsoft's argument is completely unacceptable.

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#96

Post by eddythompson80 »

vigilans wrote: post #2

[flagged]

> - that Windows is spyware

so is macos, chromeos, and ubuntu. Debian and Arch shall rise!!

> - that Microsoft is abusing their position by forcing Edge on users and bundling Teams, Outlook, Office365

I'd honestly be interested in 1 of their competitors who isn't doing this.

> - MS software quality is atrocious and I wish we weren't stuck with their garbage. Even bill gates has to agree with this under oath or he would be perjuring himself

No argument there.

finally, what does this have to do with Google's antitrust?

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#97

Post by anacrolix »

Good. It is. For a company that pretended to be a startup as late as 2014, and had the motto Don't Be Evil, they are the reverse of that. They have destructive product handling, regularly destroying alternatives with their own versions then EOL them when the market is destroyed. Their Ads monopoly is awful. Google is a bane on the internet.

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#98

Post by hackernewds »

whiddershins wrote: post #74
lolinder wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an antitrust trial your competitors are by definition victims of the monopolistic behavior that is being alleged. Yes, there will be a conflict of interest in their testimony that needs to be accounted for, but it's not unreasonable for the victim in a court case to testify of the manner in which they feel victimized. Regarding your analogy, it would be more like if you're accused of stealing from your arch rival…

The victims are the public. Edit: to clarify, I believe this is the actual legal basis of anti monopoly legislation. Protection of the interests of the public, not competitor companies.

Exactly. The point of an antitrust trial is not to transfer power and resources to competitors. It's to transfer power and resources to the voting public.

As guilty as Microsoft might be, it's rich of Microsoft with its monopolies (without which a lot of its subpar products like outlook and Teams and Edge would go poof) to be abdicating Google here.

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#99

Post by hackernewds »

patmorgan23 wrote: post #43
bettercallsalad wrote: post #27

I am not following these testimonies in anti-trust cases where they have a competitor of Google testify against Google. Isn’t testifying all about presenting evidence? If I am accused of theft in a criminal court and my arch rival is brought for testimony against me, it doesn’t sound like a fair process to me. Of course if it’s a substantiated material it would make sense but otherwise it doesn’t just makes sense at…

In the United States we have an adversarial system of justice. That means the prosecution gets to present their evidence and arguments, and the defense gets to respond and counter. The defense will have ample opportunity to cross examine and present rebuttal whiteness. And just because a witness is presented doesn't mean the fact finder (judge or jury) will find them credible.

What is the alternate form of justice, if not adversarial?

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#100

Post by hackernewds »

patmorgan23 wrote: post #43
bettercallsalad wrote: post #27

I am not following these testimonies in anti-trust cases where they have a competitor of Google testify against Google. Isn’t testifying all about presenting evidence? If I am accused of theft in a criminal court and my arch rival is brought for testimony against me, it doesn’t sound like a fair process to me. Of course if it’s a substantiated material it would make sense but otherwise it doesn’t just makes sense at…

In the United States we have an adversarial system of justice. That means the prosecution gets to present their evidence and arguments, and the defense gets to respond and counter. The defense will have ample opportunity to cross examine and present rebuttal whiteness. And just because a witness is presented doesn't mean the fact finder (judge or jury) will find them credible.

You could definitely argue the jury are humans are public opinions are easily swayed by emotion
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