Earlier quoted context omitted.
Atlassian has always been "enterprise-first" as far as I know. I can only assume that their free-tier which I've rarely encountered in the wild, isn't that successful in terms of conversion to the full-fat product or is costly in some way. I couldn't decide whether enterprise customers would be any worse off. I've maintained for a while that the bug-tracking industry is overdue a "v2" or "v3" product (e.g. IRC -> MSM…
I don't know which world you live in - it was never an enterprise first company. From the very beginning it catered to teams (not orgs) and refused to sell to the enterprise.
Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers
91–97 of 97 posts
Re: Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If a "crappy" tool costs $10k/mo for the team and doesn't require much or any devops time to setup and maintain, it's likely cheaper than the $0/mo opensource but requires part or full time management option. This is a total fantasy. There is no reason to expect the crappy enterprise tool that costs money will save time relative to the open source tool. In my experience enterprise tools takes more time and average…
I think you must be in some terrible giant corporate entity where everything sucks all the time. I bet you that what I told you about this cost/benefit is being done in every startup that YCombinator funds. I bet you they are all choosing product over staff, because their engineering staff is already their ~largest expense. Their engineers might even cost more than the rest of the company combined including executive…
That is the problem though. It isn't the engineering cost vs the tool cost. It is the engineering cost vs the tool cost PLUS the engineering cost of dealing with the tool once you buy it. Everything you have said so far leads me to believe you are missing this aspect of the cost of buying the tool.
You are right that there is a time and a place for buying over DIY, but in order to make those decisions reliably you need to know how much effort is going to go into dealing with the tool once you buy it. This isn't something you can figure out using Google sheets, because you have to actually evaluate the tool and get a sense of how dangerous the foot guns are.
You're probably right about scaling though. That sounds like an area where the ROI of paying someone else to do it is pretty good.
Re: Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is more or less my life as well. The "finisher argument" that gets rolled out is "product lifetime costs". It goes like this. Open Source Product A will always be your responsibility, which will take X hours off the team's time forever. Vendor Product B will be maintained from the vendor side, thus removing that wildcard of X. Ergo, over the "lifetime" of the product, B will have lower costs than A. Since this a…
I actually agree with the "lifetime" argument. The real fallacy is here: > Vendor Product B will be maintained from the vendor side, thus removing that wildcard of X. Product B also has a lifetime cost as you'll be paying monthly for the subscription. Also no product is maintenance free, even as you pay for it. Products evolve, you also do, next months JIRA could break some of a company's use cases and they'll have t…
We'll agree to disagree that "lifetimes" are a real thing in software - I actually think this is a pretty fluid thing - but I'm going to extend your case here to illustrate how "lifetime" interacts with incomputable costs. We have the known license costs, as stated above, but then added to that we also have this unknown cost that represents "how much time my team needs to spend maintaining the vendor product". That cost is unquantifiable but it's going to go up the less tightly-defined the product is[2], and, as stated, there is an inverse relationship between "lifetime" and "tightly defined".
So you're in a situation where the lifetime is either very short, or the vendor costs are high. But you never know "how much my people will need to do at the very base level of vendor support" so the multiplier can take it way outside of the range of "acceptable" very, very rapidly, with just a small increase in scope/lifetime. You end up paying out more for the vendor support than you're making from the Product, thus operating the whole shebang at a loss.
I think this is much more of a problem when in a domain that's not commodified, or even worse, something that's extremely niche. I'm thinking of SGML and FOSI publishing systems, specifically, but it could go for anything way out on the fringes, like weirdo material-assembly-or-org-specific CAD functions. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say if your business depends on niche, you're really way, way, way better off in-housing that, then interfacing it with the commodified functions that can run off the vendor. There's no ceiling on how high the vendor costs can go with niche stuff.
[1] Please don't get me started on cost centers.
[2] For a given cost, Product grows in scope, less profitable for the vendor to staff for supporting it, support goes down.
Re: Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers
#94GitHub and GitLab workflows are much more convenient in my opinion. They were made with actual workers in mind: developers, QA, release managers, DevOps, etc. Jira, on the other hand, is purely manager's toy with all it's useless features that often stand in a way of daily routine. I never saw any developer who was happy about Jira.
Re: Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers
#95I don't use Jira but any bad faith move (as claimed) is a serious concern for users of other Atlassian products. I've always been a champion of Trello and really don't want to be having to add cautionary notes about corporate sharks owning it, and functionality taken for granted being whipped away. Not cool.
Bad faith move? They gave ownership of my Bitbucket account to someone else and initially refused to even tell me what they did: https://lancebachmeier.com/trivia/atlassian.html
Re: Atlassian cripples’ Jira automation for all but enterprise customers
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
Atlassian has always been "enterprise-first" as far as I know. I can only assume that their free-tier which I've rarely encountered in the wild, isn't that successful in terms of conversion to the full-fat product or is costly in some way. I couldn't decide whether enterprise customers would be any worse off. I've maintained for a while that the bug-tracking industry is overdue a "v2" or "v3" product (e.g. IRC -> MSM…
I don't know which world you live in - it was never an enterprise first company. From the very beginning it catered to teams (not orgs) and refused to sell to the enterprise.