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People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

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Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#91
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan already has significant ethnic Korean and ethnic Chinese minorities. And Japanese culture has absorbed a great many influences from both Korea and China over the last 1000 years, so I doubt some more Korean or Chinese immigrants would make any great long-term difference to Japan's culture. It would just be more of what has already been. How many individuals from those ethnic backgrounds might actually want to e…

Those countries hate Japan and have declining populations too.

Currently, China is the number two immigration source country for Australia, so a declining population in China doesn't prevent it from being a source of immigrants for other countries.

South Korea and Japan do have difficult relations, and they have been getting worse. But I remember visiting South Korea some years ago and talking to some of my South Korean colleagues about how they felt about Japan, and what I noticed was wide differences in opinion – some were still very angry at Japan for things it had done long before they were born, others were critical of their fellow Koreans' anti-Japanese sentiments. I suspect some of this is political – historically, many Koreans collaborated with Japan, among others Park Chung Hee, who served in the Imperial Japanese Army during World War II, and then became South Korea's military dictator in the 1960s and 1970s. Some right-wing South Koreans still have some sympathy for the 1960s/1970s military dictatorship, and hence tend to view collaborators with Japan more sympathetically; more left-leaning South Koreans are highly critical of both.

In any event, there are a lot of things which Japan could say to try to assuage South Korean feelings on these topics. Japan's problem is that saying those things would upset Japan's own nationalist bloc. But if Japan really wants to attract Korean immigrants, maybe upsetting their own nationalists is the price of that.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#92
post #76
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Gross. Anyways: after Jewish people, Mormons are the most pro-immigration religious group in the United States. Consider not using them as an example for the virtues of xenophobia, especially when making appeals to their distinctive culture.

Do you really think GP is arguing in favor of xenophobia? I'm undecided on this topic, but nothing they've said (that I've seen) suggests xenophobia. GP even indicates in a different area that they've traveled internationally, which is a difficult thing for xenophobes.

Unless you have somethign to point to that gives you confidence that GP is arguing the virtues of xenophobia, it's likely to be counter-productive to ongoing discussion.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#93
post #62
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the transition period is not a transition period, as long as the birthrate is too low the population will continue to be age-heavy, and that will always be a problem. As for resources, Japan's resources are of the type which need people to work them (seafood, rice, other agriculture, and industry). So a population decline just makes it worse. They already have problems with rice fields, even with…

In theory, isn't the problem actually that older people are unable to work? What if we are on the brink of reversing the aging process, thus bringing the elderly back into the work force? OK, I understand it sounds a bit dystopian. I'm just thinking there might be more solutions to consider than "make more children". Automation, robotic assistance, age reversal etc.

> I'm just thinking there might be more solutions to consider than "make more children". Automation, robotic assistance, age reversal etc.

Age reversal is interesting. If that happens and everyone can be in their 20's forever, nothing like it. But automation or robots? Close your eyes and imagine a town where the youngest person is 68yo with only robots to take care of the entire town. That scenario seems fucking dystopian to me. YMMV.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#94
post #79
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gross. Anyways: after Jewish people, Mormons are the most pro-immigration religious group in the United States. Consider not using them as an example for the virtues of xenophobia, especially when making appeals to their distinctive culture.

Mormon society is well-functioning for the same reason that Japanese society is well-functioning. People share common values and culture which enables a high-level of social reinforcement of societal rules and norms. The Japanese realize that immigration would destroy their society. The Mormons don't, but that doesn't make it any less true. I find the implicit moral assertion in your post inexplicable. Are you positi…

> The Japanese realize that immigration would destroy their society. The Mormons don't, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Go back to the 19th century, and the LDS Church was heavily involved in encouraging people to convert to their religion and immigrate to Utah. Many of their missionaries in Europe were not just seeking converts, but also immigrants.

Nowadays, the LDS Church doesn't put any great emphasis on encouraging their overseas flock to immigrate to Utah. But if they changed their mind about that, I doubt LDS immigrants from Asia or Latin America would destroy the society of Mormon Utah, any more than 19th century European Mormon immigrants did. If anything, I think it would be less destructive than US intrastate migration of non-Mormons into Utah, which has been going on for a long time now.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#95
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always find it weird that people lament population decline. > The largest dangers to Japanese society lie in the transition period, where many elderly people will need to be supported by relatively fewer working age people. You answered your own question. In a lot of countries the working population pays the pensions, more pensioners and less workers = more stress on the workers. In the long run it's good but it'…

> For example in France it costs about $3k a month to have a small room in a shitty retirement house that is already overcrowded and understaffed my grandmother had Alzheimer's and her care, in rural WA, was around $9000/month USD. Reasonably new building but still pretty understaffed.

Same here in the burbs of Portland: ~$8k/month with a six figure buy-in. And that’s for a place aimed strictly at “professional class” Boomers - I can think of at least 2-3 other retirement places that are significantly more expensive.

More than anything else, THIS is what I think will ultimately kick off a housing crash. These “retirement” prices are clearly designed to squeeze the Boomers of their housing equity.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#96
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both are now become rich and they have same problem (now even more advanced)

In 2021-2022, China was the number two source of immigrants to Australia, after India. If Australia is more successful at attracting Chinese immigrants than Japan, the problem isn't availability of Chinese people wishing to immigrate, the problem is Japan's attractiveness as an immigration destination for Chinese people–and surely that's something Japan can improve if they try. Also, there a lot of ethnic Chinese peo…

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Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#97
post #85
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) What does "sophisticated" mean in this context? What is a "sophisticated" rule, or a "sophisticated norm"? 2) If anything, "a [..] set of shared rules and norms" sounds like an environment which tries to enforce a strict template for how to behave and act and do. If that's really the case then it to me would be a terrible place to be. Like that backwater isolated village with some snooping crones keeping an eye on…

> 1) What does "sophisticated" mean in this context? What is a "sophisticated" rule, or a "sophisticated norm"? The rules and norms are complex and encompass a wider and deeper range of behaviors. > 2) If anything, "a [..] set of shared rules and norms" sounds like an environment which tries to enforce a strict template for how to behave and act and do. If that's really the case then it to me would be a terrible plac…

I most definitely don't see myself as anti-social, quite the opposite if anything.

I would like to see a more specific example of what you mean by sophisticated rules and norms. What would a real-life example be? I still don't get it, so I would be happy to learn what you mean by this.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#98
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have ages old strong own culture Modern Japanese culture has its roots almost entirely in the 19th century and the post WW2 era.

This is nonsense. "Post WW2" describes current modern Japanese culture, not its root. The root goes way back to hundreds/thousands of years BC, they continuously lived on those exact islands and spoke a similar language all that time. Unlike US or Canada which are a new amalgamation of English/French/Spanish/German/Jewish/AA/Native/whatever cultures without any single root. Not to say US or Canadian culture is worse…

> not its root

You might as well say that US culture has its roots in ancient Greece or Rome, or Reformation age Europe and claim it’s hundreds or even thousands years old. It would be worth about as much.

But yeah I agree with you in the sense that US/Canada are constantly affected by a constant influx of people belonging to different cultures.

Had there been barely any immigration after ~1800 American culture would be effectively as old and unique as the Japanese one. Quebec for instance is kind of (but not quite) like that.

> just there's objectively less to worry about not ruining something age old and unique.

Well they already did during the Meiji period and subsequently, what remains is not that significant.

Also what are your thoughts on Britain, Scandinavian and some other European countries? They would be effectively no different to Japan in this sense besides the fact that they have very large numbers immigrants.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#99
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nonsense. "Post WW2" describes current modern Japanese culture, not its root. The root goes way back to hundreds/thousands of years BC, they continuously lived on those exact islands and spoke a similar language all that time. Unlike US or Canada which are a new amalgamation of English/French/Spanish/German/Jewish/AA/Native/whatever cultures without any single root. Not to say US or Canadian culture is worse…

> not its root You might as well say that US culture has its roots in ancient Greece or Rome, or Reformation age Europe and claim it’s hundreds or even thousands years old. It would be worth about as much. But yeah I agree with you in the sense that US/Canada are constantly affected by a constant influx of people belonging to different cultures. Had there been barely any immigration after ~1800 American culture would…

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Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#100
post #64
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Roman empire was unsustainable though since it was built entirely on exploitation. Turns out paying the barbarians to leave you in peace is significantly cheaper than the taxes for the army (by the end almost entirely staffed by the same barbarians) to protect you from them. Also the collapse occurred in parallel with climate change and plague which were responsible for most of the population decline.

> Turns out paying the barbarians to leave you in peace is significantly cheaper than the taxes for the army (by the end almost entirely staffed by the same barbarians) to protect you from them. If you do not want to pay for your own army you will be paying for someone else's one.

Not sure if that applies here that much.

For random peasants the Roman army was as much (if not less) theirs as the those of the barbarians that settled in their lands.

Also the barbarians were often somewhat less exploitative and most of the tax money stayed in the local area instead off being shipped of to Rome/Constantinople

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