SIM Cards Must Die • Hacker News Board

Re: SIM Cards Must Die

#91

Post by cowpewter » Fri, Mar 23, 2012, 2:22 PM UTC

gnu8 wrote: post #60

lwhi wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, a SIM card gives freedom from networks and the ability to change numbers easily and use pay as you go services when travelling. There's no way killing SIM cards would be a good thing.

Americans don't know that because their phone companies forbid that practice. AT&T doesn't even bother to move your SIM card from your old iPhone to your new iPhone when you upgrade, they just give you a new card.

When I switched from my old MotoRAZR to the iPhone, I used the same SIM. Just popped it in and I was good to go. My SIM still has the Cingular logo on it!

Re: SIM Cards Must Die

#92

Post by otoburb » Fri, Mar 23, 2012, 2:28 PM UTC

PanMan wrote: post #4

I'm afraid if we kill SIM cards, the opposite will happen: your phone will be locked to one network, and switching networks means switching hardware (beyond just the sim). I really like that while traveling I can just buy a local sim, put it in my own phone, and use it. That would only work in these wireframes if all operators would agree to support this. Which I think they won't.

>>>your phone will be locked to one network

This is exactly what happened with the original analog and CDMA networks. Most carriers these days have converged on the HSPA and LTE standards which thankfully support SIM cards.

There's no technical reason why CDMA networks couldn't have supported SIM cards in their phones, but it was just never done. As evidenced by the overwhelming popularity of SIM cards, this particular battle has been won by almost unanimous decision in favour of the cards.

Only a few bastions of the original CDMA networks still don't natively support SIM cards (e.g. South Korea). But on the whole, it was already decided that SIM cards are here to stay since carriers demonstrated that without them, they are more prone to higher switching costs.

Re: SIM Cards Must Die

#93

Post by wandernotlost » Fri, Mar 23, 2012, 2:32 PM UTC

Ironically, the SIM card is exactly the technology that enables the scenario the author describes, and it exists today (maybe not so much in the US).

"Select from this list to send your payment information to an unknown carrier" is not exactly a realistic scenario. Instead, you have an agreement with an organization (let's call it "your carrier") who handles your payment information/billing, then that organization makes arrangements with other carriers to allow you to roam on their networks. The SIM is your account identifier, and most (GSM) phones allow you to select among available networks. Anyone who has used their GSM phone abroad has probably experienced this.

The only thing preventing the scenario he describes from being more common today is the reality of capital expenditure required to build a network and the consolidation of carriers (aka botched deregulation), making it uncommon in the US to have any real choice.

Re: SIM Cards Must Die

#94

Post by Drbble » Fri, Mar 23, 2012, 2:36 PM UTC

Nice, the intellectual failure of the "must die" meme in the headline correctly predicted the intellectual failure of the article. SIM cards solve a real problem for the consumer in a convenient way. Better to replace a 5 dollar card than a 500 dollar phone when I travel, and lucky to be able to transfer phones easily.

Re: SIM Cards Must Die

#95

Post by Drbble » Fri, Mar 23, 2012, 2:38 PM UTC

kalleboo wrote: post #36

pmjordan wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pardon my ignorance, but being in Europe means I've never used a 2G CDMA network - the iPhone4S supposedly works for both GSM and CDMA; if you don't get a SIM, does the CDMA module only work if you bought the phone from a CDMA network operator, and not if you bought it from Apple directly?

> does the CDMA module only work if you bought the phone from a CDMA network operator Yes. They program it with your subscriber number at purchase. Technically they could reprogram phones not sold by them with your subscriber number, but they don't (to force you to give them more money). There does exist a CDMA version of the SIM (RUIM? something like that). China Mobile uses it, and I think au/kddi do too. American…

I am surprised they allows that. That sounds like a far more obvious antitrust violation than putting an IE icon on the Windows desktop.

Re: SIM Cards Must Die

#96

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Mar 23, 2012, 2:41 PM UTC

lwhi wrote: post #38

PanMan wrote: post #4

I'm afraid if we kill SIM cards, the opposite will happen: your phone will be locked to one network, and switching networks means switching hardware (beyond just the sim). I really like that while traveling I can just buy a local sim, put it in my own phone, and use it. That would only work in these wireframes if all operators would agree to support this. Which I think they won't.

Yep, a SIM card gives freedom from networks and the ability to change numbers easily and use pay as you go services when travelling. There's no way killing SIM cards would be a good thing.

This is currently hung on the SIM. Couldn't it just as well be hung on a web service, or paypal account? Why make it physical? This screams for virtualization.

Re: SIM Cards Must Die

#97

Post by Drbble » Fri, Mar 23, 2012, 2:41 PM UTC

stoolpigeon wrote: post #6

Loic wrote: post #2

I suppose you live in the US, with only a couple of huge carriers. I live in Germany, I am French, travelling a lot between France, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark and Switzerland. I am so happy with the SIM card system. I can switch carrier if I want easily (swap the SIM card) but especially: I do not care when I travel which carrier my phone will pick. It will work, nothing to do and I know what it will cost in advan…

This I travel enough to see the benefits as well. Phones that handle multiple sim cards are also nice. I also view it as an added layer of security. My phone can't be connected to the network until the pin for my sim is entered. The ability to save data to the sim is also a nice feature. I don't really see any reason for them to go away.

Tell one major problem with SIM is the ancient outdated hard locked data model, and phone software developers refusing to implement a proper merge when exposing both SIM and phone data in UI.

Re: SIM Cards Must Die

#98

Post by sklnd » Fri, Mar 23, 2012, 2:43 PM UTC

otoburb wrote: post #92

PanMan wrote: post #4

I'm afraid if we kill SIM cards, the opposite will happen: your phone will be locked to one network, and switching networks means switching hardware (beyond just the sim). I really like that while traveling I can just buy a local sim, put it in my own phone, and use it. That would only work in these wireframes if all operators would agree to support this. Which I think they won't.

>>>your phone will be locked to one network This is exactly what happened with the original analog and CDMA networks. Most carriers these days have converged on the HSPA and LTE standards which thankfully support SIM cards. There's no technical reason why CDMA networks couldn't have supported SIM cards in their phones, but it was just never done. As evidenced by the overwhelming popularity of SIM cards, this particul…

> There's no technical reason why CDMA networks couldn't have supported SIM cards in their phones, but it was just never done.

Indeed. RUIMs (and CSIMs) were standardized for CDMA, but carriers in the americas never bothered with them. A fair number of asian countries have CDMA carriers that use the, though.

Re: SIM Cards Must Die

#99

Post by wavephorm » Fri, Mar 23, 2012, 2:45 PM UTC

A better fight would be to push for 802.22 (super-wifi) broadband ISP's. Cell networks are obviously going to have a hissy-fit when any competition to their 3G and 4G oligopolies get tumbled over by superior technology. Due to the corruption of US politics I seriously doubt this will ever see the day of light.

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/08/07/ieee-completes-62-mile-s...

Re: SIM Cards Must Die

#100

Post by sklnd » Fri, Mar 23, 2012, 2:49 PM UTC

zred wrote: post #49

pmjordan wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pardon my ignorance, but being in Europe means I've never used a 2G CDMA network - the iPhone4S supposedly works for both GSM and CDMA; if you don't get a SIM, does the CDMA module only work if you bought the phone from a CDMA network operator, and not if you bought it from Apple directly?

CDMA phones come with an ESN ( http://www.mobileburn.com/definition.jsp?term=ESN ). It's basically like your SIM card number, except that it doesn't change. CDMA carriers can activate a phone not sold by them by ESN. However, some carriers have decided that they would prefer you to buy a handset from them and refuse to activate devices that weren't sold by them. Sprint has a policy of not activating any ESN that come…

ESN is equivalent to IMEI in GSM/UMTS networks. IMEI is tied to equipment, and never changes, just like ESN.

CDMA networks use IMSI to identify subscribers (as opposed to the equipment serial number) just like GSM/UMTS. IMSIs are provisioned on to the phone by the carrier with special software supplied by the phone manufacturer, instead of being supplied to the phone by the phone asking the SIM for it.

There's no technical reason why CDMA networks can't use a removable card to store subscriber data, and indeed there are a few standards for doing so (RUIM and CSIM) and a few carriers that use them.