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New LoRa RF distance record

thethingsnetwork.org

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Re: New LoRa RF distance record

#91

Post by eggfriedrice »

tlamponi wrote: post #64
nickcw wrote: post #43

LoRa runs in the 868 MHz band (in Europe) - a frequency range known for being line of sight only as the ionosphere doesn't reflect radio waves of that high frequency. However sometimes you can get Troposheric propagation on these high frequency bands. This used to be common when I was a teenager living in the south of England in Kent and we could occasionally receive racy TV channels from Europe. https://en.wikipedia…

> LoRa runs in the 868 MHz band (in Europe) No, LoRa can run on two bands in Europe, either EU433 from 433.05 to 434.79 MHz or EU863 from 863 to 870 MHz. See e.g., https://www.everythingrf.com/community/lora-frequency-in-eur... or https://www.thethingsnetwork.org/forum/t/is-there-an-agreed-... or for a more dense, but definitive source https://docdb.cept.org/download/4316 ("EUROPEAN TABLE OF FREQUENCY ALLOCATIONS AND…

There is essentially no use of LoRaWAN at 433MHz in Europe, this would have been at 868

Re: New LoRa RF distance record

#92

Post by sokoloff »

jacquesm wrote: post #87
sokoloff wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Plain obvious" is an argument that it's not astroturfing . It's a link to a blog on the company site, linked by someone whose profile clearly discloses they're CEO of the company. (though based on comments below, the disclosure in profile might be an hour more recent than the post itself). Personally, I find this interesting, on-topic, and (after the profile edit, if any) totally fine.

So, in your opinion plain obvious astroturfing can never be astroturfing? It's obvious to me because (1) I'm aware of the company, (2) know that there have been issues with their WP entries in the past (and still are, they are essentially marketing copy), and finally (3) because it just so happens that the company is Dutch and I keep an eye on the local eco-system. But it probably wasn't that obvious to you. These gu…

Correct. I don't think the CEO of Y can ever say "I'm the CEO of Y and here's a link to a blog on Y company website about something related to Y company that I think is worth sharing here" and have it be astro-turfing for Y. It might be advertising or even spamming. It might become too frequent or annoying or otherwise negative.

I follow TTN (and Helium), have a TTN gateway plugged in, and a dozen or so LoRa dev boards sitting around (two are within reach, albeit buried under some dust of recent disuse).

I find the LoRa tech interesting in general and a new RF distance record specifically interesting, whether it's on the TTN blog, the Helium site, on an Andreas Spiess video, or elsewhere. It sounds like you have some relevant history with the company's behavior that is shaping your opinion of their action here. We perceive their action here differently as a result.

Re: New LoRa RF distance record

#93

Post by jacquesm »

sokoloff wrote: post #92
jacquesm wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, in your opinion plain obvious astroturfing can never be astroturfing? It's obvious to me because (1) I'm aware of the company, (2) know that there have been issues with their WP entries in the past (and still are, they are essentially marketing copy), and finally (3) because it just so happens that the company is Dutch and I keep an eye on the local eco-system. But it probably wasn't that obvious to you. These gu…

Correct. I don't think the CEO of Y can ever say "I'm the CEO of Y and here's a link to a blog on Y company website about something related to Y company that I think is worth sharing here" and have it be astro-turfing for Y. It might be advertising or even spamming. It might become too frequent or annoying or otherwise negative. I follow TTN (and Helium), have a TTN gateway plugged in, and a dozen or so LoRa dev boar…

But that's the point: they didn't say they were CEO of Y. If you didn't happen to know the name of the CEO and match that to the HN handle there is absolutely nothing either on that page, nor was there in the CEO's HN bio to advise you of those facts.

Re: New LoRa RF distance record

#94

Post by femto »

johanstokking wrote: post #15

CTO & co-founder of The Things Network here! I've been working with LoRa for over eight years now, and I keep getting surprised by measurements like this. What started off as "line of sight works" went to a successful "LoRa moon bounce" [0] and now a sea level reception over 830 miles. So, any physics people here care to comment how this works? Is this pure atmospheric refraction or is there something else? [0] https…

To some extent it's statistics. Send enough messages and the odds are one will eventually get though.

> providing a standardized and objective measure of the technology's capabilities

Not really. The environment is still variable. A short message could have bounced off some random short duration reflector somewhere (aeroplane, meteor, lightning, ...) or have been refracted by some short term effect. Standardised and objective is an anechoic chamber or a cabled in attenuators/channel simulator.

Re: New LoRa RF distance record

#95

Post by jacquesm »

ricardobeat wrote: post #16

How does this work? At this distance you need a 130km-high tower for line of sight due to earth’s curvature. The previous record was set on a balloon flying at 38km height. LoRa uses high frequencies so shouldn’t benefit from the ground effect?

It's a one-off, you won't be able to achieve this with any degree of reliability in practice, but it's a nice milestone achievement.

Re: New LoRa RF distance record

#96

Post by sokoloff »

jacquesm wrote: post #93
sokoloff wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. I don't think the CEO of Y can ever say "I'm the CEO of Y and here's a link to a blog on Y company website about something related to Y company that I think is worth sharing here" and have it be astro-turfing for Y. It might be advertising or even spamming. It might become too frequent or annoying or otherwise negative. I follow TTN (and Helium), have a TTN gateway plugged in, and a dozen or so LoRa dev boar…

But that's the point: they didn't say they were CEO of Y. If you didn't happen to know the name of the CEO and match that to the HN handle there is absolutely nothing either on that page, nor was there in the CEO's HN bio to advise you of those facts.

And that's now fixed for everyone else, possibly directly as a result of your noting it.

Re: New LoRa RF distance record

#97

Post by jacquesm »

sokoloff wrote: post #96
jacquesm wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the point: they didn't say they were CEO of Y. If you didn't happen to know the name of the CEO and match that to the HN handle there is absolutely nothing either on that page, nor was there in the CEO's HN bio to advise you of those facts.

And that's now fixed for everyone else, possibly directly as a result of your noting it.

Yes, it was.

Re: New LoRa RF distance record

#99

Post by cj »

jacquesm wrote: post #88
cj wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are comments really the best place to hash this out? Why not just flag and move on. People don't need to disclose who they are when submitting things to HN. Hell, I used to have a pretty comprehensive bio, until I replaced it with an icloud relay email because random internet people would look me up outside HN and try to dig up stuff to use as ammo in response to comments I posted that they disagreed with. HN can be…

> People don't need to disclose who they are when submitting things to HN. Companies aren't people. That's one of those things I just don't subscribe to. If you are the CEO of a company and you are engaging in what can only be termed as marketing activities, effectively advertising your company I think you should be up front about that. Otherwise you can no longer see the difference between organic interest in a tech…

Maybe I’m not appreciating your viewpoint because the article nor the comments seem overtly self-promoting to me.

I would agree with you if it was a garbage press release with low quality fake comments.

Maybe there’s some niche politics that I’m unaware of in the LoRa space that is triggering.

Re: New LoRa RF distance record

#100

Post by KeplerBoy »

dbrgn wrote: post #50
nickcw wrote: post #43

LoRa runs in the 868 MHz band (in Europe) - a frequency range known for being line of sight only as the ionosphere doesn't reflect radio waves of that high frequency. However sometimes you can get Troposheric propagation on these high frequency bands. This used to be common when I was a teenager living in the south of England in Kent and we could occasionally receive racy TV channels from Europe. https://en.wikipedia…

Could the signal bounce off airplanes as well, or is that effect not relevant in practice? (I think I've heard such stories before from radio amateurs...)

Sure, that's how you get doppler shifted frequencies and enter the realm of radars.
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