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UK pulls back from clash with Big Tech over private messaging

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Re: UK pulls back from clash with Big Tech over private messaging

#91

Post by DubiousPusher »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #13

[flagged]

The technical aspects of this don't matter one way or the other if you believe that it is a fundamental human right to have secrets and communicate them. That's the root question here.

If you say, "well yes but only for legal purposes", then the jig is up. End-to-end encryption must die. You can fiddle here and there with what getting the warrants and the wiretaps and all that looks like but you have decided the fundamental question. From then on, between civil libertarians and law enforcement the issue becomes a skrimage. The courts will hash it out and subsequent legislation will ebb and flow the limits on both sides. But you have decided the fundamental question. Humans are not allowed to actually have secrets. Period. That is what happens the second you make this conditioned in any way.

Of course there are better and worse versions of this that can exist but ultimately I think it should be opposed as a state violation of human rights.

Re: UK pulls back from clash with Big Tech over private messaging

#92

Post by jiveturkey »

makingstuffs wrote: post #75
ajb wrote: post #5

It's a little unclear, but my reading of this is that the power to do it will still be in the law, requiring at most secondary legislation to put into effect (perhaps not even that) if they think they ever have enough leverage over messaging providers, or are willing to spend the political capital. Not a great place to be in really, but better than it actually being deployed.

I’d bet my life we start to see a massive influx of bad press aimed at messaging providers, focusing on how criminals are using their services, over the next few years. When the general sentiment of the average Dave is ‘encryption === bad’ this BS will rear its head again. Seems to have been the standard play for governments of this country for decades now.

Yes, so much so that there's a term for this: manufactured consent.

Re: UK pulls back from clash with Big Tech over private messaging

#94

Post by DubiousPusher »

mfDjB wrote: post #87

I wonder where does this end? I do feel like nearly once a year some country in western world tries to ban encryption. Can we just make it a right to encrypt communications and be done with this endless debate?

It should be a fundamental human right to have and communicate secrets. That's the end of the story for me.

There should be things the state simply cannot touch not just things which it should not touch.

Re: UK pulls back from clash with Big Tech over private messaging

#95

Post by pydry »

makingstuffs wrote: post #75
ajb wrote: post #5

It's a little unclear, but my reading of this is that the power to do it will still be in the law, requiring at most secondary legislation to put into effect (perhaps not even that) if they think they ever have enough leverage over messaging providers, or are willing to spend the political capital. Not a great place to be in really, but better than it actually being deployed.

I’d bet my life we start to see a massive influx of bad press aimed at messaging providers, focusing on how criminals are using their services, over the next few years. When the general sentiment of the average Dave is ‘encryption === bad’ this BS will rear its head again. Seems to have been the standard play for governments of this country for decades now.

They already deployed M&C Saatchi against it:

https://www.techdirt.com/2022/01/19/uk-has-voyeuristic-new-p...

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/revealed-u...

All about saving the children. From everybody except Prince Andrew, it seems.

Re: UK pulls back from clash with Big Tech over private messaging

#96

Post by Jigsy »

Hermitian909 wrote: post #89
Jigsy wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Online safety for kids begins at home. The problem is most parents are just too lazy.

This is just as lazy a take as the UK government though. Many societal problems would be trivial if you could get perfect compliance from the population. You can't, so if you're interested in solving problems you need to be willing to grapple with the world as it is. So far as I can tell online safety has not meaningfully improved since the late 90s - "enforce safety at home" has been the advice for all of that time…

It isn't, though. I'd say it's 50/50.

I started using the Internet in 1998, and the only advice my parents gave me was "Don't reveal anything about yourself online." (Thankfully I heeded their warning and still to this day I'm very guarded about disclosing any form of PII.)

Whilst admittedly a lot has changed in the last 25 years, I'd say only half the parents will actually try to keep their kids safe online.

The other half will sit around watching crappy reality TV shows getting angry at their five-year-old children finding porn on their own personal smartphone* because they don't want to look up how to prevent them from doing that, and instead absolve that responsibility to the gov't...

...who in turn use that as an excuse to censor the Internet.

*not entirely sure why a five-year-old needs a smartphone, but anyway.

Re: UK pulls back from clash with Big Tech over private messaging

#97

Post by hackncheese »

anonymous_sorry wrote: post #79
Jigsy wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Online safety for kids begins at home. The problem is most parents are just too lazy.

Or too busy? In plenty of families both parents have to work hard to make ends meet. Not helped by the fact that children are growing up in a completely different environment to the one their parents remember. Familiarizing myself with TikTok or whatever the kids are into these days would fill me with dread. And the way platforms work means my experience of them would differ dramatically from a child's anyway.

Wish I could upvote this harder lol. Parents really dont have enough time/energy to do this better than people who are trained in software/legislation. Especially if they have more than 2 kids/are single parents

Re: UK pulls back from clash with Big Tech over private messaging

#100

Post by blowski »

DubiousPusher wrote: post #94
mfDjB wrote: post #87

I wonder where does this end? I do feel like nearly once a year some country in western world tries to ban encryption. Can we just make it a right to encrypt communications and be done with this endless debate?

It should be a fundamental human right to have and communicate secrets. That's the end of the story for me. There should be things the state simply cannot touch not just things which it should not touch.

Playing devil’s advocate, under this legislation, you can have secrets and you can communicate them secretly - just not via some channels.
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