Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

danieldk.eu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 229 posts

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#91

Post by fanf2 »

galkk wrote: post #70
nazgulnarsil wrote: post #20

I highly recommend low profile switches for those who haven't tried them. They weren't really available in many models until recently and they're a big step up from standard switches if you're more used to laptops.

Any specific recommendations for switches/key caps? Can I buy some to put into my zsa moon lander?

Low profile switches are not compatible with MX keyboards, because all the dimensions are different. There are “mid profile” switches made by GMTX and perhaps others, which can be swapped into an MX board. (The Kailh mid-profile switches are not MX compatible.) You might have to be careful about keycap compatibility, to avoid longer caps that might bottom out on the switch plate.

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#92

Post by vladvasiliu »

Cannabat wrote: post #85
yyt88 wrote: post #44

I wonder if all those "ergonomic" designs really aim at the right corner of the solution space. What about targetted exercise of involved muscle groups and regular breaks to stretch and relax the tendons/joints/muscles/...? I mean, with our societies sedentary life style, surely exacerbated by programmers sitting for 10+ hours a day, I'm a bit doubtful that moving even less is the answer. What about doing a few simpl…

I'm not sure if taking regular breaks and doing exercises can fully mitigate the RSI and discomfort/pain that drives many to use ergonomic keyboards and input devices. Personally, my wrists start to hurt after only an hour or two of use of a "normal" keyboard and mouse. It doesn't matter if I've spent the previous 3 months offline doing yoga (getting very thorough full-body movement) or totally absorbed in some compu…

> Personally, my wrists start to hurt after only an hour or two of use of a "normal" keyboard and mouse.

IME, what has worked for me is to make the interval of the "regular breaks" on the order of one hour. The break isn't much, just get up, grab a glass of water or whatever, moving my arms and wrists a bit, then sit back down.

> To be clear, the goal is not exactly to move less - it's to keep the wrists and shoulders in a neutral, less-stressful position.

I fully agree with this.

The only hardware issue that couldn't be solved with this approach and required a new keyboard was the wrists-angled-up situation imposed by a 2012-era Apple keyboard (don't know if they've evolved since).

I've always refused to type for longer than a few minutes on keyboards that don't at least lay flat on the table. And for the keyboards I use every day (when sitting at my home or work desk) I've insisted on keyboards with a wrist rest and no number pad. I have a TKL one at home, and I think even that may be too large. My "75%" (laptop style, with the arrows under Enter and HOME / END / etc in a column to the right of Enter) is perfect.

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#93

Post by microtonal »

d5ve wrote: post #90

I use a Glove80 keyboard, and even after 4 months I'm not back to my normal typing speed! This has cost me a fair bit of productivity, and was stressful at times. Almost feeling like I'd suffered a bit of brain damage, where I could picture what I wanted to do, but be unable to type it out. Having the modifier keys in the thumb cluster feels a lot less awkward than using my left-hand little finger at odd angles. And…

These differences between people are really interesting. When I switched from a traditional keyboard to a flat column stagger keyboard, I did 15-30 minutes of exercises a day and after a week I was pretty much at my regular speed. Going from a flat column stagger keyboard to a Kinesis Advantage took me a few hours of adjustment at most. And from the Advantage to the Glove80 no adjustment at all.

I type Colemak-DH, but I am experimenting on the side with letter on thumb layouts. Over the past few weeks, I have tried rsthd, Maltron, and now aptmak (30 key variant). With aptmak I am at 40 WPM after ~5 days. I still type Colemak-DH during the workday at my regular speed, I can switch to a typing tutor and type aptmak at that speed again after two minutes or so (even though I have space on the other hand).

I am sorry for all those people for which this is a really long painful process. I am sure age is a factor, but I am also past 40, so it's definitely not the only factor.

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#94

Post by microtonal »

Isognoviastoma wrote: post #66
yyt88 wrote: post #44

I wonder if all those "ergonomic" designs really aim at the right corner of the solution space. What about targetted exercise of involved muscle groups and regular breaks to stretch and relax the tendons/joints/muscles/...? I mean, with our societies sedentary life style, surely exacerbated by programmers sitting for 10+ hours a day, I'm a bit doubtful that moving even less is the answer. What about doing a few simpl…

Keycap displays could be used to shuffle letters, thus prevent touch typing and force neck moves.

Or just put on blanks.

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#95

Post by lycopodiopsida »

d5ve wrote: post #90

I use a Glove80 keyboard, and even after 4 months I'm not back to my normal typing speed! This has cost me a fair bit of productivity, and was stressful at times. Almost feeling like I'd suffered a bit of brain damage, where I could picture what I wanted to do, but be unable to type it out. Having the modifier keys in the thumb cluster feels a lot less awkward than using my left-hand little finger at odd angles. And…

Keep practicing! When I switched to KA2 I could not type with the same speed for months. I've also decided to switch from QWERTY to Colemak at the same time - it did not improve the situation.

But I am fine now, have a KA2 @work, Model 100 @home and have no problems switching between them whatsoever on a daily basis. I've also ordered Glove80 and I am sure it will be fine. What I have some problems with, are those rare occasions where I travel and have to use my notebook's keyboard. Everything - staggered layout, lack of thumb cluster, no split, scissor switches - is just a source of huge discomfort.

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#96

Post by yyt88 »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #75
yyt88 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Insane"? I type professionally too. On my laptop, in a myriad different settings. Sometimes in a coffee shop, sometimes on a quiet bench in a hallway, sometimes at home on my sofa, my kitchen table, and sometimes at my desk. I enjoy every minute of it and I'm having a blast. 11 years and counting. If it doesn't work for you then it doesn't mean it won't for anybody else. It's surely not "insane".

All I read is: "I have been a professional carpenter for a decade and sharp knife is all I use. I use it for floors, chairs, tables, and all. If it doesn't work for you then don't use it" Of course I can work with a tiny laptop screen and keyboard, but I choose to actually have a pleasurable experience when I work.

And you call those "insane" who don't agree.

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#97

Post by atoav »

henrik_w wrote: post #38

I had severe problems with RSI many years ago, to the point where I thought I had to give up programming alltogether. I also got an ergonomic keyboard, which helped, and an argonomic pen-like mouse. However, I would say that even more important in getting rid of my problems was the use of a break program. It reminds me to take regular breaks, and prompts me to to stretches throuhgout the day. The combination of these…

As someone who sits in front of computers way above the average and never had any issues with eyes or hands (while others my age had issues there) I think this is the key:

Try to get into the habit to stretch your wrists/fingers when you are not using them and try to do the same thing with your eyes (eyes are muscles too), by e.g. focusing onto something far away, rolling your eyes, etc.

If you are of the type that gets lost in work some reminder can help, but I think it is better to form habits of using thinking breaks to do the stretching. Nobody types regularily for 3 hours straight without interrupting to think at least for a bit once every few minutes. If you use these breaks to stretch, you will be fine.

Ultimately a person with good habits will be able to work healthy with seemingly unergonomic setups, while a person with bad habits will be able to use even the most ergonomic setup in unhealthy ways.

Everybody knows that collegue who has that incredibly expensive ergonomic chair and sits on it like a bored prototypical teenager. Habits will always trump tools, unless your tools are so incredibly bad, it will be self evident that they are.

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#99

Post by yyt88 »

Symbiote wrote: post #79
yyt88 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Insane"? I type professionally too. On my laptop, in a myriad different settings. Sometimes in a coffee shop, sometimes on a quiet bench in a hallway, sometimes at home on my sofa, my kitchen table, and sometimes at my desk. I enjoy every minute of it and I'm having a blast. 11 years and counting. If it doesn't work for you then it doesn't mean it won't for anybody else. It's surely not "insane".

Your experience at age 30-ish might not be the same at 40-ish. I don't know myself, as I've not reached 40, but I'll take the advice of those that have and use the appropriate tool in the recommended way.

I'm mid-50, thanks for asking. I've had a military carreer before doing more desk type of work.

This was about keyboards, but sure, we can talk about screen real etate too. It can be great, but it can introduce more distractions too. Having a single laptop screen in front of you makes you focus on what matters most. Those chat and mail windows can stay hidden until I need them and opt to get distracted. Others may see that differently, and that's ok.

Re: Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard

#100

Post by yyt88 »

microtonal wrote: post #89
yyt88 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In hindsight, would it have helped you as well doing targeted exercising? It's understandable that a tech community immediately turns to tech as a solution to problems, but it may not be the best solution, or at least not the only one available.

I have been doing targeted exercising for a longer period. It helped, but didn't solve my issues. I believe in a multi-faceted approach. Exercises are great, even necessary. But avoiding pronation in the other 55 minutes of an hour, letting the blood flow, is also useful. Why should it just be one thing?

> Why should it just be one thing?

I have not suggested that. Quite the opposite. Let's not make gadgets be the only thing that matters, even though it may be more fun to geek out on key alignment.

Post reply on HN