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The boiling frog of digital freedom

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Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#91
post #74
post #19

There is one interesting force acting against that though (or it would probably already have happened). It is the simple fact that most people that are competent enough to actually implement these things also understand the problems with doing so. For the most part anyway. If we could just agree to not do that... well, what are "they" going to do? And of course: we owe it to the web to use Firefox. The Chrome clones…

I think the ship has sailed for the web. Many apps don't even bother with making functional webapps any longer; the go to market are mobile apps for the censorship platforms. The web lost. Now it's just a transport layer for mobile app API requests.

> Many apps don't even bother with making functional webapps any longer

It seems they have gotten inside your head. If services are no longer that, but "apps", then of course people lose sight of the problem.

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#92
post #26

This rather heavily begs the question what do we mean by "freedom"? We don't mean anonymity. Acting in secret is not freedom - acting openly and not being persecuted or prosecuted is freedom. The solution is what it is in real offline life. A regulated legal framework that allows most and limits little, a open dynamic culture that accepts diversity and constant change. If we are worried that digital freedom will be t…

> This rather heavily begs the question what do we mean by "freedom"? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

[deleted]

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#93

VPNs wont be outlawed. But they will be KYC and backdoored encryption - so like an typical internet service provider. VPNs are used all the time in the cloud for legitimate reasons so outlawing is impractical (like outlawing a kitchen knife)

Dunno UK seems to be pretty far through outlawing e2e encryption... Dumb gets through sometimes, they only need to be lucky once

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#94
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, chrome and google in general are the first in line to cause problems. There are many browsers, many apps, many everything... you can switch whenever... but the DRM and attestation pushes with browsers (and mobile devices) means, that sure, you can use a different browser, but your bank, your streaming service, your newssite might not work unless you're using chrome with drm and hardware attestation. This is alr…

Then switch from these services while they are still only a few. Revenue is a language they understand. I never understood why anyone would even want a banking app though; there is nothing int can do that a website can't. The browser war can at least still be won or settled; mainstream apps are a lost cause outside the legal arena. Edit: and by switching i don't mean going to some tinfoil grayweb nonsense. Go to thei…

>I never understood why anyone would even want a banking app though; there is nothing int can do that a website can't.

A mobile phone app can let users "deposit paper checks from home" without ever driving to the bank branch by taking a photo of the check with the smartphone camera. Last time I looked into it, a desktop website couldn't enable check deposits with a webcam. (EDIT: I don't mean technically not possible. I meant that the banks deliberately chose not to have the websites utilize desktop/laptop webcams as an alternative to smartphone apps.)

Smartphone bank apps also have "push notifications" to immediately alert you of suspicious activity on your account.

But if one never uses the extra features that smartphones bank apps enable, then yes, desktop bank websites can be seen as perfectly equivalent.

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#95
post #44
post #21

We need a new philosophical movement for computer technology. The Stallman movement failed because it was not practical for business applications. At the end of the day, coders & hardware manufacturers need to eat just like accountants, plumbers and doctors. Technology can't rely 100% on altruism. What we need is something close to the Ethical standards of the Stallman movement, but also compatable with business owne…

I am sorry, but you basically say that we need more altruistic capitalists. Won't happen. > These philosophical ethical standards should also be ingrained into VC culture & corporate culture. Won't happen. Money always wins and exploiting people on the side of selling (or giving for free) them some stuff is always going to bring in more cash than respecting their privacy.

Their are business like Source Hut that are built on the basis that they will not do some of the things people like Github do.

And I am glad that they are profitable.

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#96
post #27

This rather heavily begs the question what do we mean by "freedom"? We don't mean anonymity. Acting in secret is not freedom - acting openly and not being persecuted or prosecuted is freedom. The solution is what it is in real offline life. A regulated legal framework that allows most and limits little, a open dynamic culture that accepts diversity and constant change. If we are worried that digital freedom will be t…

To expand on your idea to compare with the "real offline life"... While anonymity should not need to be a top-priority goal in and of itself, you also don't see people running around with their id-cards taped to their foreheads for easy access.

The thing is, we will. And do.

I mean my face is of course my fortune, but it is also my username. A frankly it's a username I have been using a lot longer than 'lifeisstillgood'.

my analogy is that one upon a time we were all walking dow the street in Victoria London during one of Sherlock Holmes "peasoupers". Only people who got up close to you could see what you were doing and even reognise you. But technology has cleaned up the air. Now anyone can see from who knows how far away. The privacy we thought we had because of the peasouper is revealed to be a mirage, we were always walking around naked, it just was harder to see.

We can simply accept this, or far more likely find a cultural consensus. Privacy can be violated for the public good (hunting offenders, medical epidemiologists etc), but otherwise you are not allowed to use the knowledge you have to exploit or influence. No adverts based on prior activity, no Cambridge Analytica creating ads just for you.

We are heading there. That Facebook and amazon more or less publish every ad campaign is incredible - imagine trying to persuade parliaments in 50 countries to pass that sort of legislation.

We are a long way from that "cultural consensus". We will probably get halfway there in the grey areas - like facebook deciding to publish all ads. The British politician Nick Clegg is likely able to make more influence globally at Facebook than if he became PM.

But we are in the culture wars, and we need to fight. The law, the application of the law - these matter online and offline.

So vote. And vote in primaries too because that shapes so much.

(Weird idea - Oz has compulsory voting to ensure votes reflect "everyone". What if we had compulsory political party membership so that parties and primaries reflected the population ...)

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#97
post #19

There is one interesting force acting against that though (or it would probably already have happened). It is the simple fact that most people that are competent enough to actually implement these things also understand the problems with doing so. For the most part anyway. If we could just agree to not do that... well, what are "they" going to do? And of course: we owe it to the web to use Firefox. The Chrome clones…

> And of course: we owe it to the web to use Firefox. Mozilla is hanging tightly on the Google's tit though. It won't be shocking to see Firefox deteriorate rapidly should it start gaining ground on Chrome. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Sigh. Another of the long line of defeatist non-arguments. What is your point? Should we all just roll over and die? Writing just to be contrarian?

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#98
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Stallman movement failed The stuff you read on hn... Seriously, you think it failed? I think it succeeded wildly beyond anything anybody imagined at the time, to the point that very large entities threw everything and the kitchensink at it to try to make it fail. Which exposed them for the criminals they were. We don't need anything that is more compatible with 'business owners' than what we've got. What we nee…

Given your last paragraph, what is the net trend in society of that happening with enough speed to outpace other negative developments? Would it be more accurate to say that the Free Software movement is in need for an update, or making next steps, to provide a better outlook in this regard? Edit: Changed "Stallman movement" to "Free Software movement". I am a FOSS advocate myself, but not interested in deeply engrai…

I think it's doing fine as it is within the limits of the law. If you want more you're going to have to either operate outside of the law or you're going to have to have the laws changed. But within the law the Free Software Movement used all of the available space, to the point that almost every other license out there is less strict than theirs.

What needs to be updated is the the knowledge of the users and of the programmers. But we've been co-opted as an industry for the most part by very large bags of money and a service oriented eco-system is the capitalist response to the free software movement.

Doing an end run around that is hard to enforce (see the various licenses that address this loophole directly) without having the backing of a regulator. I see this as a simple swing of the pendulum, which it has done several times in the past regarding centralization and decentralization of computers: single machines -> single machines with terminals and time sharing -> mini computers with terminals -> microcomputers -> networked micro computers -> networked micro computers using peer-to-peer services -> networked micro computers with access to services -> special purpose computers (terminals!) with access to services. So if we want to do away with these we'd need to focus on the technical implementation of federated services that do not require central services at all. One thing you could advocate for is to restore peer-to-peer capabilities of residential internet but the fear of the hacker card will be played to counter that one. But there is also still pressure to push the pendulum one more step to the right: identified access to the internet and without that no service. This may well happen, I would expect a country like the UK or Australia to be first to implement this.

Also note that there is no actual technical driving force behind the pendulum, it doesn't have to swing at all, it could just as easily get stuck. The important common factor between all of the above was that someone (or lots of someones) made a lot of money by driving the swing.

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#99
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Stallman movement failed The stuff you read on hn... Seriously, you think it failed? I think it succeeded wildly beyond anything anybody imagined at the time, to the point that very large entities threw everything and the kitchensink at it to try to make it fail. Which exposed them for the criminals they were. We don't need anything that is more compatible with 'business owners' than what we've got. What we nee…

Businesses don't do free. It is not what they exist for: The 'Stallman movement' isn't compatible with the the tech-company, the employed software-engineer, etc. I think what the OP is getting at is that the for-profit tech industry needs something akin to the Hippocratic Oath [1]. As software engineers swearing to a set of 'do no harm' ethical codes could well be a first step to becoming a recognised professional. I…

The for profit industry has been very happy to integrate the fruits of the FOSS labor.

And yes, we need an ethics framework for the IT industry, but we need liability more than that and I don't think either is going to happen in the next 10 years. Maybe if there is a mass death (> 10K people at once or so, a few 100 doesn't seem to have made a difference so far) on account of a software issue we will finally wake up.

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#100
> Youtube, Gmail, Spotify, banks and a few other major websites start using Google's WEI API for internal user reputation scoring, forcing non-compliant browsers through more captchas.

You forgot the biggest threat: CloudFlare

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