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‘It’s Not My Responsibility’ to Save the Office Economy

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Re: ‘It’s Not My Responsibility’ to Save the Office Economy

#91

Post by themaninthedark »

jeffbee wrote: post #17
themaninthedark wrote: post #8

It's kind of funny to me that for a long time the people in cities looked down on rural people and life and touted the benefits of living in close proximity. When COVID hit, we saw a mass exodus from the cities and now people don't want to return.

Every clause of your post is false. There was not a mass exodus from cities during COVID. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/12/16/in-2020-f... Urban people do not look down on rural people. It’s the opposite. Rural people are the most likely to hold negative opinions about people who live in other situations, and urban dwellers are the least likely. https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2018/05/22/how-…

I appreciate the data! However on the second point, I will note that I don't know of any term used recently by rural communities to describe urban dwelling. City Slickers being the only term that I know but have never heard or seen written in news.

"Flyover Country" is thrown about often however. Especially around election time and regarding how they are controlling to much of the country's politics.

Re: ‘It’s Not My Responsibility’ to Save the Office Economy

#92

Post by harshalizee »

DonsDiscountGas wrote: post #84
amathyst wrote: post #73

There seems to be such a strong anti-RTO/pro-remote sentiment on HN. I don’t hold that against anyone: if you prefer working from home, then I’m happy for you! But here’s another take: I’m a software engineer and I love working from the office. I enjoy my 40 minute commute (on sunny days I ride a bike and on rainy days I read a book on the train). I enjoy the separation in my life between where I work and where I liv…

I understand feeling this way if the company actually closed the office so you literally could not go in. But even remote-friendly places typically have an office which is big enough for the people that go, so you'd still have company even if plenty of people were remote. I understand why some people like RTO (even though I'm not one of them), I don't understand why they have such hostility towards the WFH folks.

I don't it's hostility per se. If a company closed down their office, then it's certain that they are now remote-only and the RTO aficionados will have no choice but to find a new employer that shares their preference.

But if only a subsection of employees work remotely in a "hybrid" or RTO setting, and the person in the office still has to sit in on Zoom calls all day then the whole point of being in the office is redundant. They're just working remotely from the office.

Re: ‘It’s Not My Responsibility’ to Save the Office Economy

#93

Post by candiodari »

fullshark wrote: post #51
bluefishinit wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incorrect. CEOs are literally planning these moves together. In a more general sense they're also creating an open culture to promote this type of thing. Take a scroll through some VC/CEO twitter accounts and see how many whine about WFH or people "cheating" at work, working two jobs, not having a work ethic... The capital class is good at working in its own interest and it has a lot of leverage to do so.

They are unhappy for sure, and are all copying each other because they are afraid of making the wrong move. They looked at what Musk did with Twitter with great interest I'm sure, looking for lessons for example to carry over, as one of the few leaders willing to stick his neck out. I don't believe there's major orchestration but it is true when everyone's on each other boards an incestuous common sense/wisdom tends…

Following Twitter seems like a suboptimal move to me:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66217641

And according to this the extreme tactics only destroyed Twitter, they did not even achieve an actual return to office.

https://archive.md/GvzCX (original link: https://fortune.com/2023/03/24/return-to-office-elon-musk-tw... )

Add to that that Twitter is now letting go of office space as well. Now some of that is due to layoffs, but it could also mean Mr. Musk is not even expecting RTO to work at Twitter, or at least not to the extent he planned.

Re: ‘It’s Not My Responsibility’ to Save the Office Economy

#94

Post by chomp »

dangus wrote: post #75
glitcher wrote: post #26

“Everything from daycare to public transportation, toll roads, fuel and fuel taxes, auto purchases and maintenance, dry cleaners, nail spas, restaurants, clothiers, hair stylists, dog walkers, nannies and office leases suffer when people work from home,” Sounds to me like more households get to retain more of their income (and time) as a result. And that extra money will end up back in the economy albeit in different…

Most of these examples don’t even suffer very much. Roads don’t “suffer” from disuse, their maintenance costs go down. People who work at home still need child and sometimes even pet care, working from home doesn’t mean you’re magically able to watch your children and work at the same time. People don’t get their hair and nails done to please coworkers. Dry cleaners are already on their last legs due to changing fash…

I agree with all of your points except:

> People don’t get their hair and nails done to please coworkers.

On some level, my most of my routine hygiene was due to having to go into the office, including getting my hair cut. I'd likely have skipped a couple hair cuts if I never had to face people.

Re: ‘It’s Not My Responsibility’ to Save the Office Economy

#95

Post by candiodari »

seydor wrote: post #39

The workers won't have a lot of leverage in the end. Especially in tech, it has been shown that companies can do fine with much much fewer employees. Corporates can use RTO as an excuse for further belt-tightening as needed, even if most workers end up (over)working remotely. The office has truly no reason to exist anymore, but as long as capital is still concentrated in a few cities around the world, it will have le…

"it has been shown that companies can do fine with much much fewer employees"

Has it? Twitter has lost most of its employees ... AND most of its income. I doubt this makes for a net positive for them.

Re: ‘It’s Not My Responsibility’ to Save the Office Economy

#96

Post by scruple »

cebert wrote: post #30
imgabe wrote: post #19

Offices per se aren’t necessarily terrible. Commutes are terrible. Open floor plans are terrible. Companies don’t seem interested in fixing these things, though.

I live very close to an office at my company. My issue isn't with going to the office but more so the open office floor plan. At my home, I have a dedicated quiet office and can focus much easier. I don't have to wear headphones all day to cancel out the noise and distractions. The leaders making RTO mandates have personal offices and don't get to "enjoy" the same experience as the worker bees.

I have a colleague who will wear noise cancelling headphones all day but will periodically take them off to disrupt someone else to ask a question he could Google. It's insane, I'm probably going to say something to him because he isn't connecting the dots at all.

Re: ‘It’s Not My Responsibility’ to Save the Office Economy

#97

Post by hardware2win »

dangus wrote: post #75
glitcher wrote: post #26

“Everything from daycare to public transportation, toll roads, fuel and fuel taxes, auto purchases and maintenance, dry cleaners, nail spas, restaurants, clothiers, hair stylists, dog walkers, nannies and office leases suffer when people work from home,” Sounds to me like more households get to retain more of their income (and time) as a result. And that extra money will end up back in the economy albeit in different…

Most of these examples don’t even suffer very much. Roads don’t “suffer” from disuse, their maintenance costs go down. People who work at home still need child and sometimes even pet care, working from home doesn’t mean you’re magically able to watch your children and work at the same time. People don’t get their hair and nails done to please coworkers. Dry cleaners are already on their last legs due to changing fash…

Id say it differently:

Money moves from centers to outside

Re: ‘It’s Not My Responsibility’ to Save the Office Economy

#98

Post by jeffbee »

themaninthedark wrote: post #91
jeffbee wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every clause of your post is false. There was not a mass exodus from cities during COVID. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/12/16/in-2020-f... Urban people do not look down on rural people. It’s the opposite. Rural people are the most likely to hold negative opinions about people who live in other situations, and urban dwellers are the least likely. https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2018/05/22/how-…

I appreciate the data! However on the second point, I will note that I don't know of any term used recently by rural communities to describe urban dwelling. City Slickers being the only term that I know but have never heard or seen written in news. "Flyover Country" is thrown about often however. Especially around election time and regarding how they are controlling to much of the country's politics.

I'm not sure it's proper to conflate flyover vs. coastal states with rural vs. urban. Even the middle-most states of the continent are majority urban dwellers. Most people in Kansas live in either KC or Wichita. The only state that is really majority rural is Vermont.

Re: ‘It’s Not My Responsibility’ to Save the Office Economy

#99

Post by dragonwriter »

po8tin wrote: post #81
dragonwriter wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prior to world war industrialization, 90% of workers were independent. If you change that to “prior to the First Industrial Revolution”, and by “independent” you mean “worked on family or village farms”, sure, that's approximately right. Just before even the first world war, there is no sense where this is true, even loosely.

Right, so, “prior to world war industrialization.” I know what I wrote. Have a good day!

The first world war was almost a half century after the end of the first industrial revolution and the usual marker of the end of the second. Neither revolution’s work pattern changes were driven primarily by military logistics. (OTOH, changes in the patterns of warfare were driven by the same forces as the work pattern changes.)

So, no, your comment about 90% of workers being independent before “world war industrialization” is way off base.

Re: ‘It’s Not My Responsibility’ to Save the Office Economy

#100

Post by redserk »

themaninthedark wrote: post #91
jeffbee wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every clause of your post is false. There was not a mass exodus from cities during COVID. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/12/16/in-2020-f... Urban people do not look down on rural people. It’s the opposite. Rural people are the most likely to hold negative opinions about people who live in other situations, and urban dwellers are the least likely. https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2018/05/22/how-…

I appreciate the data! However on the second point, I will note that I don't know of any term used recently by rural communities to describe urban dwelling. City Slickers being the only term that I know but have never heard or seen written in news. "Flyover Country" is thrown about often however. Especially around election time and regarding how they are controlling to much of the country's politics.

I disagree.

1. Those who express disparaging remarks towards others do not need to utilize a specific term.

2. A common narrative is that urban environments/cities are mismanaged, possess dangerous amounts of crime, and filled of corrupt politicians.

3. "Flyover Country", in a political context, is generally a complaint about the structure of representation.

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