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Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

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Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#91

Post by SushiHippie »

pezezin wrote: post #90
SushiHippie wrote: post #18

> In an ideal world, the major stakeholders of the Linux desktop – KDE, GNOME, the various major distributions – would get together and seriously consider a plan of action. The best possible solution, in my view, would be to fork one of the major browser engines (or pick one and significantly invest in it), and modify this engine and tailor it specifically for the Linux desktop. Is it really the best solution to crea…

>> In an ideal world, the major stakeholders of the Linux desktop – KDE, GNOME, the various major distributions – would get together and seriously consider a plan of action. The best possible solution, in my view, would be to fork one of the major browser engines (or pick one and significantly invest in it), and modify this engine and tailor it specifically for the Linux desktop. > Is it really the best solution to c…

Well, WebKit was created by Apple and not something small like KDE, GNOME where mostly volunteers would participate.

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#92

Post by SushiHippie »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #29
SushiHippie wrote: post #18

> In an ideal world, the major stakeholders of the Linux desktop – KDE, GNOME, the various major distributions – would get together and seriously consider a plan of action. The best possible solution, in my view, would be to fork one of the major browser engines (or pick one and significantly invest in it), and modify this engine and tailor it specifically for the Linux desktop. Is it really the best solution to crea…

I also think "the major stakeholders of the Linux desktop -- KDE, GNOME, various major distributions" are not necessarily in _any_ better shape than Mozilla is, unless you think IBM is going to open their wallet...

Isn't IBM more in the server sector, which wouldn't care that much about Linux desktop anyways?

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#93

Post by SushiHippie »

pessimizer wrote: post #45
SushiHippie wrote: post #18

> In an ideal world, the major stakeholders of the Linux desktop – KDE, GNOME, the various major distributions – would get together and seriously consider a plan of action. The best possible solution, in my view, would be to fork one of the major browser engines (or pick one and significantly invest in it), and modify this engine and tailor it specifically for the Linux desktop. Is it really the best solution to crea…

I think you concluded with a very key point, though. > And who guarantees that the fork will further exist without weird funding?

Kind of funny, the author wants to create a fork to evade from the weird funding that Mozilla has, but doesn't talk about how the fork could sustain without weird funding.

I think creating a fork could be possible, but I don't really see how this solves the core problem that the author is worried about and how this is the "ideal solution".

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#94

Post by Vinnl »

linuxandrew wrote: post #41

As a long-time Firefox user (or rather, LibreWolf and Mull now) the biggest problem as I see it is websites that no longer support it. Compatibility is constantly getting worse as Chrome/Blink monopolises web dev and testing. I'm considering writing letters to some of the sites that have the biggest issues and raising it as an issue. Otherwise, Firefox is mostly fine. I have a few gripes with it and Moz are mismanagi…

It's also helpful to report them at https://webcompat.com. Browsers can (and do) add site-specific workarounds every now and then, and/or reach out to the websites in question.

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#95

Post by martinald »

Delk wrote: post #89
martinald wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel like I'm on a different planet to a lot of these desktop Linux users. I've used desktop Linux since the late 90s - Redhat 6 was the first disto I used. I have had uncountable complete system failures since then. As the parent says doing a dist-upgrade has a very non-0 chance of completely bricking the system. I've even had apt brick itself multiple times through normal upgrades. Linux on the desktop for me over…

What really sounds like something with the setup is not right to me is that Beached seems to say they have to cross their fingers every time they run just a plain update, not a release upgrade. I remember often having to fix something when dist-upgrading Ubuntu when I used it on personal desktops between ~2005 and ~2014. I can't remember what kinds of issues there were, and apparently none of them entirely bricked th…

Yes, I think if you pick hardware specifically for Linux you'll have far less problems and this may explain the difference.

Having said that, my RaPi has got in a bad apt state twice now which should be fairly 'mainstream' as hardware goes (as in a lot of people running the exact same configuration).

I think you may be right with what you consider bricking too. I would consider the system bricked if a dist-upgrade succeeded (system boots ok) but apt is in a bad state after, as it can take hours to resolve that.

I think also I have a lot less tolerance for this after running Mac and Windows for so long (I've only recently started using Windows again once WSL became stable, before that it was basically just Mac). I have never had a bricked upgrade from that.

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#96

Post by Delk »

martinald wrote: post #95
Delk wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What really sounds like something with the setup is not right to me is that Beached seems to say they have to cross their fingers every time they run just a plain update, not a release upgrade. I remember often having to fix something when dist-upgrading Ubuntu when I used it on personal desktops between ~2005 and ~2014. I can't remember what kinds of issues there were, and apparently none of them entirely bricked th…

Yes, I think if you pick hardware specifically for Linux you'll have far less problems and this may explain the difference. Having said that, my RaPi has got in a bad apt state twice now which should be fairly 'mainstream' as hardware goes (as in a lot of people running the exact same configuration). I think you may be right with what you consider bricking too. I would consider the system bricked if a dist-upgrade su…

I agree apt or dpkg ending up in a bad state would probably mean bricking for lots of people. It's something I remember also having to do in some cases after dist-upgrades.

I remember having occasionally dealt with having to manually run dpkg reconfigure to install packages that had somehow ended up in a semi-installed state during an upgrade, or some other similar bad state. To someone who's not familiar with the distro's internals, and probably to some who are, that would just appear as a mysteriously broken system that no longer operates.

I guess for me bricking would be if I can't get the system working again using some kinds of relatively well-documented or known repair steps (that is, known to me or sort of generally). I'm more bothered by something not quite working right and not understanding it than I'm by a complete but repairable bricking that I understand or know how to fix.

That's almost certainly not how most people would perceive it, though.

And even though I'm probably not that averse to fixing things, I also originally moved from Debian unstable to the newly founded Ubuntu because I didn't want to deal with routinely playing sysadmin on my personal box any more.

With that said, I don't know if it's because of stricter checks being made by dnf before package operations or what, but I've never got dnf/rpm into a non-working state on modern Fedora. Despite my old affection for Debian-based distros, I admit that apt/dpkg has seemed more flakey to me after this.

After nine years, I wouldn't even know how to try doing something similar to manually running dpkg reconfigure on Fedora. If that even exists.

(edit: sentence)

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#97

Post by kleiba »

ranguna wrote: post #86
kleiba wrote: post #55

What problem? I've been using Linux with Firefox for at least 15 years, and I've never thought this to be a problem. Linux is not an operating system for the unwashed masses, it's a specialist operating system for more technical oriented folks. It's less polished in many areas and requires some jumping through hoops at times as we all know. In return, you get a vastly better user experience if you're the right kind o…

Wouldn't things be better if we don't gate keep Linux? I remember Linus and Luke from Linus tech tips on YouTube making a series about the Linux desktop, in the end they both had a bunch of very constructive criticism, things that the "more technical oriented folk" would just brush off as minimal issues that can be dealt with it at the end of the backlog. But those issues are actually quite important, and if there's…

It really depends on what your ultimate goals are with Linux. Let's not forget that today, it's mostly a server OS first and a desktop OS second.

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#98

Post by clumsysmurf »

cassianoleal wrote: post #32
clumsysmurf wrote: post #19

To be fair, its still got plenty of warts on OS X too. After all this time, putting Firefox in full screen mode results in seriously wonky & intolerable behavior. Its the only app I have that shifts all its chrome (toolbars, tabs) when you bang the top of the screen. Compare this to Safari (only the menu shifts). No, hiding all of it is not the solution.

That doesn't happen to me at all. What happens is that the menubar shows, and the top bar of the browser (where the back/forward buttons and the URL bar are) slides down to give space to the window bar (with the zoom and close buttons) over the top of the browser. That's all. All the content, sidebar, etc stays stationary. It's true that Safari does it better, but honestly not by much.

Sidebar and content do stay stationary, but everything else (tabs, url bar, toolbars) shifts for me. Its hard selecting tabs when they cause a shift down, being they are at the top of the bang area.

The best part, is when they do shift down, they only expose empty space.

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#99

Post by emilsedgh »

SushiHippie wrote: post #91
pezezin wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> In an ideal world, the major stakeholders of the Linux desktop – KDE, GNOME, the various major distributions – would get together and seriously consider a plan of action. The best possible solution, in my view, would be to fork one of the major browser engines (or pick one and significantly invest in it), and modify this engine and tailor it specifically for the Linux desktop. > Is it really the best solution to c…

Well, WebKit was created by Apple and not something small like KDE, GNOME where mostly volunteers would participate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebKit#Origins

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#100

Post by geophile »

LorenDB wrote: post #22
geophile wrote: post #14

Can someone knowledgeable comment on the possibility of VivLdi becoming the de facto standard browser for Linux? I played with it a little, thought it worked well, and most notably, it worked well for websites that gave Firefox trouble.

I'd prefer to see Brave be the de facto default. Except for some crypto stuff that is bundled by default, it seems to be really nice and even ships its own privacy focused search engine. (Disclaimer: I personally don't daily drive Brave, but I would consider it if I ever decided to drop Opera.)

I hadn't heard about Brave. Just started using it, and finding it very nice so far. Easy to get started, as the import from Firefox was quick and painless. I have high hopes for this one.
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