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How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

economist.com

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Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#91

Post by PKop »

frognumber wrote: post #67

My question: As an American, why should I work in IC fabrication? I'm competing with low-cost Asians who set a cap on my salary. Work conditions, income, and everything else is worse than SWE. I switched away from electronics early in my career, and it seems like a strict win. As much as I believe in on-shoring, I'm not sure those issues can, will, or should be fixed.

They may be forced upon us, regardless of the negatives you highlight, if globalization and free-trade brakes down and/or the international trade-value of the $ goes down making the cost-benefit for domestic sourcing more favorable.

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#92

Post by Mouthfeel »

cezart wrote: post #56
hospitalJail wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that include the several hundred billion dollars from CHIPS act? That was a sad moment last year, I am extremely concerned we Zombified our tech sector.

Can you please elaborate what the issues are, and what do you mean by Zombified?

[dead]

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#93

Post by [deleted] »

gorjusborg wrote: post #32
bob1029 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking about moving out to that area. Building these fabs will do amazing things for the local community & economy. It is also likely the most resilient part of the TX power grid...

Careful. The cost of a fab makes it very difficult for competitors to start up. Working in a field with only a few competitors seems attractive, but you risk specializing in skills that only few businesses worldwide can leverage. I used to work in semiconductors and transitioned to software when I realized how precarious that was.

[deleted]

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#94

Post by ptero »

While not specific to chipmaking, Lyn Alden's latest public newsletter on reshoring is, as always, excellent: https://www.lynalden.com/reshoring/

The relevant point is that while the manufacturing portion is real, successful reshoring also requires skilled labor. Skilled labor for fab production is not something US has now and it takes many years to grow; and it is not clear if the US has the desire and the will to foster this growth.

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#95

Post by crote »

merman wrote: post #14
javajosh wrote: post #6

When these types of things are funded one always gets the sinking feeling that the money is just getting stolen and/or wasted by savvy insiders who know how to write grants or who know the right people. In fact, I think that's a reasonable assumption and some proof is required to show that it is not the case.

Good thing there are $200B worth of proof already. At what point would you be satisfied, if 100% of semi manufacturing took place in the US and 0 chips were manufactured elsewhere the instant the grants were handed out?

The big question is what exactly is being built.

The CHIPS Act was marketed as an "AI cold war", and needing to bring high-tech research and production back to the US. Is is actually doing that by incentivizing companies to build leading-edge fabs in the US, or are companies just using it as free money to expand the production capacity of their trailing-edge processes?

Sure, having locally-sourced trailing-edge chips is still better than getting them from overseas, but it doesn't exactly do anything to reach the intended goals.

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#96

Post by quantumwannabe »

jagged-chisel wrote: post #80
qbasic_forever wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a city that TSMC is already throwing under the bus and saying the American workers there are lazy and not cut out for their harder Taiwanese business/work ethic? https://9to5mac.com/2023/06/29/tsmc-arizona-chip-plant-delay... I don't think any of this onshoring, if it ever actually happens, is going to be a net positive for the areas that host the fabs. TSMC is already sending hundreds of their own workers ov…

Is this perhaps just sour grapes from TSMC because they actually need to train the new workforce?

The hilarious thing is that when TSMC was founded they had to train EVERYONE. Taiwan had zero chip fabrication talent. All of the specialists at the time, even the founder of TSMC, were in the US. For them to complain that it's impossible to train a workforce is laughable and is most likely just racism/nationalism.

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#97

Post by KennyBlanken »

vel0city wrote: post #13

Judging by all the construction I see at the fabs around me, the people I see moving in to get the new jobs working at the fabs or related businesses, I'd say its pretty real to me and those around me. https://www.ti.com/about-ti/company/ti-at-a-glance/manufactu... https://news.ti.com/blog/2022/09/29/tis-new-300-millimeter-w... https://dallasinnovates.com/finisar-considers-3-billion-semi... https://www.dallasnews.com…

A commitment that apparently does not include:

- treating anyone who isn't "white enough" with dignity and without extreme suspicion of being in the country illegally. Driving in texas and not white enough? You might end up in jail if you don't have sufficient proof on you that you're not "an illegal"

- a reliable power grid, because they petulantly do not want to have to follow federal regulations in how they run said grid (also, electrical pricing that doesn't swing by 4 orders of magnitude or more)

- a well-funded public school system with science-based curriculum to develop their children into a skilled workforce capable of critical thinking, being retrained, etc.

- human rights, healthcare, mental health services, etc which highly skilled technical workers tend to strongly prefer/value (and in case nobody told Texas: there is a long, long history of highly skilled electronics engineers, programmers, etc being LGBTQ, autistic, having mental health needs, etc.)

Anyone who is highly skilled in semiconductors could write their own ticket. Why would they go to Texas?

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#98

Post by alephnerd »

vel0city wrote: post #54
Spooky23 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the worst business to work for. You’ll work 60 hours a week for shitty pay, and be the Yoda of some tool. In 10 years there will be a new magic tool. Then you start learning the Starbucks menu.

There are loads of jobs related to the fabs surrounding them though. Lots of companies designing the things these fabs will end up actually producing, lots of testing the things these fabs produce, lots of integrating these things the fabs produce. The technology services supporting those companies making the designs. Etc.

Those jobs don't pay well either.

You'll see salaries of around $70-110k in very expensive metros like the Bay, Portland, Dallas, Austin, etc.

Salaries just haven't kept up in the EE space.

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#99

Post by KennyBlanken »

stanfordkid wrote: post #72
Spooky23 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the worst business to work for. You’ll work 60 hours a week for shitty pay, and be the Yoda of some tool. In 10 years there will be a new magic tool. Then you start learning the Starbucks menu.

Sounds like the ideal type of trade to build a union for?

Ah yes, Texas, well known for its labor rights.

When the cops are complaining about union-busting...

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#100

Post by aj7 »

frognumber wrote: post #67

My question: As an American, why should I work in IC fabrication? I'm competing with low-cost Asians who set a cap on my salary. Work conditions, income, and everything else is worse than SWE. I switched away from electronics early in my career, and it seems like a strict win. As much as I believe in on-shoring, I'm not sure those issues can, will, or should be fixed.

Ans. To make a living.
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