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Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

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Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#91
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, but I wonder how much areas and personal experiences matter. My experience with UPS over last 2 decades, as a receiving individual , has been dismal (condos in Toronto and now house in satellite residential community). I understand they optimize toward businesses, and I'm sure as a business their procedures are streamlined and efficient, but as a resident receiving package, it's awful. Majority of packag…

My experience with UPS has been similarly poor. For two addresses in different states, whenever UPS sent me a package that required my signature, they simply forge it and mark it as delivered. They don't even bother to ring the doorbell.

In my hood they might look at your door before marking you as not home requiring a trip out to a holding facility.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#92
post #55

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

> Reminds me of fast food employee who simply hands your meal out the window, no greeting, no thank you, no smile... They aren't even putting on a little dance for each customer, to celebrate the wonderful minimum-wage soul-crushing git they got!

There is a middle ground of basic social interaction between failing to acknowledge a party in a transaction and being forced to do an impromptu dance for them.

In the case of Cold Stone Creamery though I agree, those kids should not have to sing for tips.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#93

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

One time, I had amazon delivery driver show up and they just threw my package at the door. Literally, just chucked at my door and I heard the thud in my home office.

They were beta testing a new SNS feature.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#94
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is such a weird American fixation. Here, take my money and hand me my burger and receipt, there's no need for a conversation or a fake smile. You don't care how my day is going, I don't really care about yours. Let's keep this transaction professional and solely focused on this exchange of money for burger. As a Canadian cousin over here, if you can't tell the difference between a smile/a polite "Hi, how can I…

> Is there something "weird" about that? No, absolutely not, and you can put down the superiority complex. There is something weird though. Getting service from those minimum wage workers is not enough: people also demand their fake pleasure to serve and sympathy.

Barbara Ehrenreich (RIP) wrote several excellent books about that.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#95
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there something "weird" about that? No, absolutely not, and you can put down the superiority complex. There is something weird though. Getting service from those minimum wage workers is not enough: people also demand their fake pleasure to serve and sympathy.

Humans are all humans. Irrespective of their income level. Not sure what minimum wage has to do with whether or not being polite and pleasant conversation is exchanged.

It's much easier to be polite when you're well-paid and not overworked.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#96
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because courts are supposed to see through flimsy fictions like this. These companies are not in an ordinary vendor/customer relationship: they are controlled completely by Amazon, they do not and cannot serve customers other than Amazon, their conditions and working hours are set by Amazon, etc. They are Amazon subsidiaries in all but name, and their treatment by the law should reflect that.

Tell that to every government contractor. Many companies (that I'd wager you wouldn't take issue with) exist due to the contracts they have with a single government organization.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#97
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is such a weird American fixation. Here, take my money and hand me my burger and receipt, there's no need for a conversation or a fake smile. You don't care how my day is going, I don't really care about yours. Let's keep this transaction professional and solely focused on this exchange of money for burger. As a Canadian cousin over here, if you can't tell the difference between a smile/a polite "Hi, how can I…

>As a Canadian cousin over here, if you can't tell the difference between a smile/a polite "Hi, how can I help you?"/a "have a nice day", and an actual conversation involving smalltalk, then you clearly don't know about what you're criticising. That's literally his point, the whole friendly-service-with-a-smile thing is forced on them by their managers/corporate, it's not from a sincere desire to have an actual conve…

Businesses have policies that you're supposed to do this for the same reason that businesses have policies that you're not supposed to spit on people; basic human decency needs to be encoded because some minority of people won't go for it otherwise.

Being pleasant to strangers even when you're having a bad day is basic human decency, and of course it's supposed to go both ways. If I'm a customer at a burger shop and I'm having a bad day, I still smile and say thank you when a stranger hands me a burger or holds a door for me in public, not because any boss is forcing me to do it but because this is simply the decent thing to do. Just because I'm having a bad day doesn't mean that I should make that somebody else's problem. Spreading misery around doesn't help me one iota, and only makes things worse for everybody. Having a surly attitude with strangers is basically social vandalism.

This is true outside of commercial contexts, and still true within commercial contexts. You're complaining about the power dynamics of the commercial context, which fine, fair enough, but the basic principle of treating people decently instead of making your problems into their problems applies in all public contexts, including the customer side of those commercial interactions and also when no money is being exchanged at all. And of course some minority of the public won't reciprocate, there are some people who treat service workers like trash and unload their problems on those workers... they're wrong for doing it. Those kind of people existing are the reason businesses have to encode common decency into their rules and policies.

Edit for Stefan's remark: "It's the least the servant class can do - fake joyfulness to avoid saddening their betters, right?"

"Servant class"? What I said is that everybody should be decent to other people. Read my comment again if you didn't catch this the first time. It's supposed to go both ways. It isn't a matter of class at all.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#98

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

I suspect this is very regional. My Amazon deliveries come in a marked van, clean enough, with a uniformed driver. They have been just as personable as the UPS & FedEx drivers, they don't walk through my lawn, they all deliver packages to my doorstep just the same. But the Amazon guy does take a quick picture. Can't really just toss it and walk away.

> Reminds me of fast food employee who simply hands your meal out the window, no greeting, no thank you, no smile...

That's a sad place for sure. I don't eat a lot of fast food, but our closest restaurants are usually courteous. But that might also be partly how I address them. I decided many years ago that common courtesy just made the whole world a nicer place, whether in person or driving down the road. Even if you start out forcing it, as your mood improves so will the moods of the people you interact with, and it spreads. Bad attitude also spreads. So I don't choose that.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#99
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a Canadian cousin over here, if you can't tell the difference between a smile/a polite "Hi, how can I help you?"/a "have a nice day", and an actual conversation involving smalltalk, then you clearly don't know about what you're criticising. That's literally his point, the whole friendly-service-with-a-smile thing is forced on them by their managers/corporate, it's not from a sincere desire to have an actual conve…

> That's literally his point, the whole friendly-service-with-a-smile thing is forced on them by their managers/corporate, Courtesy with customers is forced on them? My god! The next thing you'll tell me they're expected not to curse at their co-workers, too! What kind of world is this?! > it's not from a sincere desire to have an actual conversation with customers. Once again, and as I already said in the very text…

“Unsmiling” is not “unprofessional”.

Smiling isn’t about courtesy, respect, or professionalism. It’s a US cultural habit that is not universal in the rest of the world, ingrained into service industries, in service of demands that workers subsume all emotion in favor of providing “service with a smile”. Covid masking protocols were looked upon fondly by service industry workers specifically because they didn’t have to fake-smile anymore.

Don’t hold your breath for the return of fake-smiles, and don’t confuse the absence of a smile with the presence of negativity, discourtesy, disrespect, or unprofessionalism. It’s just a neutral face, delivering a neutral package to a neutral stranger.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> music blasting Far be it from me to say a driver can't listen to music while they are at work. > the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a month Good. Washing work vehicles so that they are always sparkling seems like a waste of resources. > Reminds me of fast food employee who simply hands your meal out the window, no greeting, no thank you, no smile This is such a weird American fixation. Here, tak…

> This is such a weird American fixation. Here, take my money and hand me my burger and receipt, there's no need for a conversation or a fake smile. You don't care how my day is going, I don't really care about yours. Let's keep this transaction professional and solely focused on this exchange of money for burger. As a Canadian cousin over here, if you can't tell the difference between a smile/a polite "Hi, how can I…

The reality is no matter how genuinly your delivery driver ask "hi how can I help", he/she does not care about it. There is simply no time for him to care about it. Otherwise, you will see your delivery fee increase since.
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