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E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

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Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#91

Post by 5ADBEEF »

brendamn wrote: post #21

Is there a hardware platform better suited for these types of use cases? Not that long ago it seemed the tradeoff was either use a cheap but unreliable hobby platform (RPi or Arduino), or a stable but expensive (and usually somewhat custom) platform that involves picking the right components, board design, etc. Espressif sounds like they might be filling this gap, but it’s been a long time since I’ve looked seriously…

ESP-32 or Nordic. Nordic has Wi-Fi and cellular now. Would assume most people would use a Quectel module + Nordic/ESP32 for this.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#92

Post by asddubs »

Gigachad wrote: post #44
DropInIn wrote: post #17

Looks like the same model as neuron which is have used and seen torn to bits by what I assumed were crack/meth heads.... but maybe it was just someone who wanted a free pi

I once met a guy who cracked open scooters to take the sim card. They then had a 4G wifi router that they found an exploit to change the IMEI to match the scooter to create a wifi AP with unlimited internet not attached to their identity.

incidentally you can change the IMEI on a pinephone relatively easily, at least there's guides available online. I haven't tried it and apparently it's illegal, but the more you know

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#93

Post by matheusmoreira »

ravenstine wrote: post #57
samtho wrote: post #12

This would be hilariously satirical if it were not true and it highlights much of what is wrong with tech. A benture capital subsidized micro mobility startup pulls out of a major city ostensibly because threshold for potential profit has been crossed and they’ve determined they cannot adjust their pricing to get the right numbers on their spreadsheet (note: this likely part of the reason why so many of these compani…

Is there so much of a shortage of hardware engineering talent that these startups really need to be using hobby hardware? I am not formally trained in electronics, but I managed to learn enough in the last year to design and manufacture my own PCBs for respiratory breath analysis with Atmel microprocessors. Essentially, they're like Arduinos but I also attached an off-the-shelf SD card reader and a bluetooth module.…

> I am not formally trained in electronics, but I managed to learn enough in the last year to design and manufacture my own PCBs

How did you learn? I'm not formally trained in electronics either and would like to be able to do this.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#94

Post by calgarymicro »

s3p wrote: post #83
calgarymicro wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Foundation's charitable activities involve funding educational programs for children.[0] Those educational programs are funded via the profits made from selling Raspberry Pis[1], so their charitable goals are aided by selling as many Pis as possible; that's helped by ensuring that reliable corporate customers that place orders in the thousands are never left high and dry. [0] https://www.raspberrypi.com/about/ [1…

The pis are getting sold either way. See op's comment about publicly available pis getting snatched in seconds? RBP doesn't need a deal with a large corporation to sell off their inventory.

Presumably the Foundation sees a future (which is pretty close at hand, if the Foundation is to be believed) where there is no longer a shortage, at which point they would like to continue having industrial customers (which you won't have if you can't guarantee supply). Eben Upton has repeatedly spoken of his desire not to leave companies whose business depends on supply of Pis without stock, thereby endangering their survival.

It's also worth noting that the rapid selling out of hobbyist inventory happens in part because much of the supply is earmarked for industrial customers; we don't actually know if that would still happen if all Pis were sold directly to hobbyists.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#95

Post by arcticbull »

superdisk wrote: post #51
notatoad wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

developing for esp32 is way more difficult than developing for raspi. raspi lets you basically treat it like a normal computer, you can use standard python and sqlite and install whatever nonsense you want from pip and basically assume it will run whatever your laptop can. it means you can hire kids straight out of school, or outsource to india, and whoever you get can work on it without really any concern - it'll ru…

Problem: We need to outsource the software to India. Solution: Put a way overpowered computer in the product so they can program it. Ridiculous problem with a ridiculous solution. Are they allergic to any level of correctness? Sometimes I'm ashamed to be in this industry.

I've struggled with this question myself so I'll just put it out: what makes using something that's more powerful than you need - and less expensive - wrong or shameful?

The only product that matters to a customer is one that exists, and if this approach saves you money, lets you prove product market fit, or allows the product to keep existing longer - isn't that more important than the fact the Pi has more parts than you need?

What if the jet ride cost 25% less than the drive? What if they're only using the jet to prove demand exists on the route? Optimization only makes sense in the face of scale, but you need to get to the scale first.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#96

Post by AlotOfReading »

5ADBEEF wrote: post #90
AlotOfReading wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you live that embedded systems folks cost more than a generic Python dev? Everywhere I've ever heard of, ES is on the low end of the pay scale for software. Python is usually in the middle somewhere. That's definitely true in Seattle as well.

350k is so out of touch. maybe in a decade when there are no embedded devs left. everyone I work with is 55+

It's certainly attainable in ES, but you have to be fairly far out on the bell curve even with a decent amount of seniority in a HCOL area. It's nowhere near an average salary even in silicon valley.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#97

Post by arcticbull »

Turskarama wrote: post #71
analog31 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I design my own boards too, but throwing a SOM into my layout is way too attractive to pass up, especially when schedule matters more than COGS. Make-versus-buy decisions abound in product development. If you aren't a full stack electronics and firmware designer, then you have to manage the design project with its uncertainties, including schedule. A buy-in gets you moving right away, to address other project issues…

Sure but the added cost is not a big factor when you're making a handful of them.. If you're making tens of thousands though? Then it begins to add up.

10,000 @ $35 is $350,000 - that's really not that much money. That's like 1 to very generously 3 engineers for a year. Can you really design, build, validate, ramp, stock, fulfill and deploy your own hardware for less than that? I strongly suspect they ran the numbers and the answer was a hard no.

Not to mention the time penalty - as a rule of thumb it takes about minimum 6m average 12m to go from concept to physical units in people's hands at scale. These Pi's are shipping today. As a startup, that's hard to pass on.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#98

Post by barbazoo »

nyanpasu64 wrote: post #80
barbazoo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, but this has a hint of gatekeeping I would say. If someone makes a product and it's somewhat successful, who cares what it's built on!? The actual intent according to their website is > Computing for everybody > From industries large and small, to the kitchen table tinkerer, to the classroom coder, we make computing accessible and affordable for everybody. https://www.raspberrypi.com/ I would say that's…

IMO every company, employee, or hobbyist should be able to buy the same number of Pis. Fulfilling orders of thousands for corporations while leaving individuals to fight over out-of-stock listings is not computing for everybody.

It's not that it's their business model to suffer from supply chain issues.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#99

Post by superdisk »

arcticbull wrote: post #95
superdisk wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem: We need to outsource the software to India. Solution: Put a way overpowered computer in the product so they can program it. Ridiculous problem with a ridiculous solution. Are they allergic to any level of correctness? Sometimes I'm ashamed to be in this industry.

I've struggled with this question myself so I'll just put it out: what makes using something that's more powerful than you need - and less expensive - wrong or shameful? The only product that matters to a customer is one that exists, and if this approach saves you money, lets you prove product market fit, or allows the product to keep existing longer - isn't that more important than the fact the Pi has more parts tha…

My lament is more about the unrelenting desire to degrade software from being robust, well designed, and fit for the task, to fungible slop pouring out of a pipe from whoever is cheapest. In no other profession (architecture, construction, teaching, anything) would that mentality be tolerated.

The unnecessarily wasteful hardware is just one of the (ultimately more benign) side effects of that.

Re: E-scooter startup Spin apparently uses RasPi 4s inside their scooters

#100

Post by internetter »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #86
internetter wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’d wager you never tried to launch an embedded Linux-powered product I'd wager most people go with a RTOS

Outside a few open source options like zephyr (and FreeRTOS to a lesser extent), RTOSes typically have a worse developer experience than even the shittiest vendor kernel trees. At least Linux doesn't dictate your choice of dev tools like most of the commercial RTOSes do and the libc usually works.

I quite like Zephyr? Are you saying it's somehow worse than Linux? I agree there's plenty of garbage though.
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