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Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

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Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#91

Post by croisillon »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #29
mike_hock wrote: post #5

[flagged]

It's not. The guy is an incompetent right wing a-hole who babblers populist ideas like this to get the people riled up like he's standing up for them with their best interest at heart, instead of focusing on the real issues that people face (housing, cost of living, healthcare, education, immigration, the economy, etc) He's basically the Donald Trump equivalent of Austria but instead of raising border walls to "stop…

you're right that he's a horrible person, that's why: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartbreaking:_The_Worst_Perso...

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#92

Post by carlosjobim »

ye-olde-sysrq wrote: post #83
TekMol wrote: post #8

What makes cash special is that compared to other assets, it puts a bit more power into the hands of the individual and a bit less power in the hands of the government. To count or seize the individuals cash, the government has to make some fuzz. Aka send men with guns. There seems to be some divide in our world between people who consider individual power a good thing and people who consider it unnecessary. Here in…

Is fiat currency not another case of "the worst solution except for all the other ones we've tried?" Gold-backed reserve notes and even coins made of the metal(s) can still be debased (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_currency#Debasement ). And as noted, transacting in ingots of the precious metals isn't practical. Also heavy and hard to securely store and transport. Trying to transact in and hold a commodity…

> What if you hold a bunch of gold and then we find a better non-tarnishing conductor and switch to it, and the price plummets?

With metals you can only question "What if?", with fiat currency the only question is "When?", because all fiat currencies in history have collapsed and become worthless.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#93

Post by deepspace »

rurban wrote: post #89

It's a purely populistic political move, as their far right party is campaigning against digital money, e-cards, EU. We had the very same campaign a few decades ago, when the EU demanded some overview over tax evasion accounts.

Tax evasion is my biggest gripe against the existence of cash.

As a professional working for a company, I have little or no means of avoiding tax. Rich people can and do pay expensive lawyers and accountants to exploit loopholes in tax law, to minimize their tax liability.

People in cash-friendly occupations, like contracting, likewise have the ability to hide income through under-the-table cash transactions.

Which leaves poor saps like me to carry an unfair percentage of the tax burden, just so that a few people can feel like they are evading government supervision. (Hint: they are not).

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#94

Post by dragonwriter »

carlosjobim wrote: post #92
ye-olde-sysrq wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is fiat currency not another case of "the worst solution except for all the other ones we've tried?" Gold-backed reserve notes and even coins made of the metal(s) can still be debased (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_currency#Debasement ). And as noted, transacting in ingots of the precious metals isn't practical. Also heavy and hard to securely store and transport. Trying to transact in and hold a commodity…

> What if you hold a bunch of gold and then we find a better non-tarnishing conductor and switch to it, and the price plummets? With metals you can only question "What if?", with fiat currency the only question is "When?", because all fiat currencies in history have collapsed and become worthless.

> all fiat currencies in history have collapsed and become worthless.

No, they haven't.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#95

Post by deltarholamda »

ye-olde-sysrq wrote: post #83
TekMol wrote: post #8

What makes cash special is that compared to other assets, it puts a bit more power into the hands of the individual and a bit less power in the hands of the government. To count or seize the individuals cash, the government has to make some fuzz. Aka send men with guns. There seems to be some divide in our world between people who consider individual power a good thing and people who consider it unnecessary. Here in…

Is fiat currency not another case of "the worst solution except for all the other ones we've tried?" Gold-backed reserve notes and even coins made of the metal(s) can still be debased (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_currency#Debasement ). And as noted, transacting in ingots of the precious metals isn't practical. Also heavy and hard to securely store and transport. Trying to transact in and hold a commodity…

>Gold-backed reserve notes and even coins made of the metal(s) can still be debased

Well, yes, but it's harder to play games with, which makes it more stable. It's similar to making the argument that while Windows is less secure than Linux, Linux also has security issues, so we should just have everybody use Windows.

We have ample evidence that the caretakers of our money supply are, shall we say, less than diligent.

No currency system is going to be perfect. You have to balance a lot of things, and every single one is subject to corruption and other sorts of chicanery. There is always a "what-if" scenario.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#96

Post by staunton »

TekMol wrote: post #8

What makes cash special is that compared to other assets, it puts a bit more power into the hands of the individual and a bit less power in the hands of the government. To count or seize the individuals cash, the government has to make some fuzz. Aka send men with guns. There seems to be some divide in our world between people who consider individual power a good thing and people who consider it unnecessary. Here in…

Gold is a sham, too. Its economic value in terms of useful uses is waaay below the market rate. The only reason people hoard gold is because everyone historically believes it to be valuable...

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#97

Post by carlosjobim »

pmontra wrote: post #86
TekMol wrote: post #8

What makes cash special is that compared to other assets, it puts a bit more power into the hands of the individual and a bit less power in the hands of the government. To count or seize the individuals cash, the government has to make some fuzz. Aka send men with guns. There seems to be some divide in our world between people who consider individual power a good thing and people who consider it unnecessary. Here in…

> The vibe I get is "The system works, so why not let the government handle and control everything.". It works probably better than in many other places, but which European country is that?

Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, Denmark are the countries with the most faithful government worshippers. It's simply a religion in those countries at this point.

You'd expect Switzerland to be on that list, but in my experience the Swiss are nothing like that.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#98

Post by dragonwriter »

ye-olde-sysrq wrote: post #83
TekMol wrote: post #8

What makes cash special is that compared to other assets, it puts a bit more power into the hands of the individual and a bit less power in the hands of the government. To count or seize the individuals cash, the government has to make some fuzz. Aka send men with guns. There seems to be some divide in our world between people who consider individual power a good thing and people who consider it unnecessary. Here in…

Is fiat currency not another case of "the worst solution except for all the other ones we've tried?" Gold-backed reserve notes and even coins made of the metal(s) can still be debased (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_currency#Debasement ). And as noted, transacting in ingots of the precious metals isn't practical. Also heavy and hard to securely store and transport. Trying to transact in and hold a commodity…

> What if you hold a bunch of gold and then we find a better non-tarnishing conductor and switch to it, and the price plummets?

Or, for an example that actually happened with gold and silver, we find a previously unknown (to the society using it as currency) plentiful and cheap supply of the same metal?

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#99

Post by Swizec »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #48
throwaway60707 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here in Europe, I have the feeling the vast majority of people consider it unnecessary. The vibe I get is "The system works, so why not let the government handle and control everything.". > I wouldn't be surprised if that is a golbal phenomena and holds steady throughout time. Come to the east of EU/Europe and you'll see a completely opposite vibe. No wonder, people in their 40s still remember communism. And the ol…

This dichotomy was made extremely apparent to me during the pandemic. In the US, not saying all opinions were homogenous but most of my liberal friends supported government actions during the pandemic (e.g. closures originally, then mask mandates, vaccine mandates, etc.) I'm friends with a number of folks from Eastern Europe, a couple of whom spent their early childhood under Ceausescu, and the difference couldn't ha…

> their opinions were pretty much lockstep with the US right in terms of the pandemic, and it was clear this was due to ingrained government distrust

As a person born in communism but too young to remember, now living in USA, my attitude during pandemy was best described as: The mandates are more like guidelines than actual rules.

They were definitely a good thing. We needed people not to congregate en masse in poorly ventilated spaces. But joke’s on you if you think that means I won’t go running without a mask, not like I’m breathing in peoples’ face for extended periods.

Re: Austrian leader proposes enshrining the use of cash in country's constitution

#100

Post by sdsd »

Makhini wrote: post #69
throwaway60707 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here in Europe, I have the feeling the vast majority of people consider it unnecessary. The vibe I get is "The system works, so why not let the government handle and control everything.". > I wouldn't be surprised if that is a golbal phenomena and holds steady throughout time. Come to the east of EU/Europe and you'll see a completely opposite vibe. No wonder, people in their 40s still remember communism. And the ol…

In Poland cashless payments thrive, more than in Germany.

From childhood to adolescence I used to go on calls with my dad to fix air conditioners with my dad and we met a Polish couple. By this time I was 14 and communist, having read the motorcycle diaries. Anyway, I asked them about their experience growing up in communist Poland.

The wife was absolutely disgusted towards communism. Mind you, this couple lived in a pretty luxurious two story house. She associated communism with lack. The husband on the other hand, well, he wasn't communist, but he told me about how you didn't feel precarious, so to speak. How you knew you'd be able to go to college if you studied hard, how you'd get to go to summer camp, how you'd get an apartment when you got a job, and so on. Like you could kind of feel economically secure about your future in a way that you couldn't in capitalism.

I found this really interesting. Perhaps this is gendered because the husband (who worked) is more stressed out by economic precarity than the wife (who didn't), or who knows.

Anyway, I think Poland is a bad example here - I think they are not as nostalgic towards communism generally as, say, Russians are. Moldovans seem to even go beyond nostalgia, holding communism to just be a time when life was much better.

I don't have opinions on this, just my experiences based on a handful of conversations. In other words, less than anecdotal.

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