Can we just buy Honda out and give them GM?
Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
91–100 of 193 posts
Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
it really disgusts me that this comment has been upmodded so much. it reeks of overgeneralization, ignorance, and hyperbole. it's very easy to sit on your high horse and talk about hypothetical denny's waitresses, but a little harder when this actually effects you and your loved ones. my father worked his ass off for GM for more than 25 years, not to mention driving 100 miles each way for the last 10 so his family di…
You're talking like his job was an entitlement. Companies go bust and people lose jobs, it happens a lot. The reason people are talking UAW workers that way, is not because they begrudge the individual worker like your father - they don't. It's because the car companies were not allowed to fire or lay off people as they wished, which gives a very strong impression of entitlement and job guarantees amongst UAW workers…
"entitlement and job guarantees amongst UAW workers that no one else in america has"
Well about 10% of Americans work for the government in some respect. How often do they get fired, in spite of doing nothing?
(Disclaimer: I once worked for State Government. I'm not sure how much work UAW members did, but I can't see how anyone can get less done than Government Employees did. For every one that worked really hard, there were three that were simply showing up and waiting for retirement.)
Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
it really disgusts me that this comment has been upmodded so much. it reeks of overgeneralization, ignorance, and hyperbole. it's very easy to sit on your high horse and talk about hypothetical denny's waitresses, but a little harder when this actually effects you and your loved ones. my father worked his ass off for GM for more than 25 years, not to mention driving 100 miles each way for the last 10 so his family di…
You're talking like his job was an entitlement. Companies go bust and people lose jobs, it happens a lot. The reason people are talking UAW workers that way, is not because they begrudge the individual worker like your father - they don't. It's because the car companies were not allowed to fire or lay off people as they wished, which gives a very strong impression of entitlement and job guarantees amongst UAW workers…
huh?? in the last 15 years gm has closed dozens of plants. yes, certainly the union fought to get the best deal collectively for their workers, but you have to have rocks in your head if you think people like my father felt entitled. they felt lucky to have a job.
as for finding another job... you highlight my point! it's pretty fucking difficult to find another job when after 20 years the only thing you're qualified to do is work in a general motors factory, particularly when your supporting a family. if my dad had the luxury of "finding another job", don't you think he would?
again, im not defending gm, the uaw, or any of the system as whole, i'm simply highlighting the fact that maybe the situation is a bit more nuanced than you understand.
Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
#94one must ask why a waitress at denny's who makes minimum wage and has no healthcare must bail out union workers at gm who make 8x the wages, do less work, have ZERO DEDUCTABLE healthcare (do you? i doubt it), and full pensions. or why should a succesful worker at honda in ohio subsidize not only a failed competitor, but in essence have his own taxation used to undermine his own hard work? as for saving jobs and inves…
I'm wondering where these GM employees with zero deductible healthcare are. My dad is a retiree, and the last time he had zero deductible healthcare was in 1998, when it was much cheaper for the company.
Nowdays he pays 100% of his office visits and has some yearly deductible for other things. It's still a good health plan, but it's not exactly gold-plated.
GM has done some incredibly stupid things, even my dad thinks the job bank was ridiculous, but they have made a lot of changes in the last 5-8 years, and were probably going to glide into something new and better had the market for cars not fallen apart.
Now I'm not saying I support a bailout, I still think Chapter 11 probably makes the most sense, even if it means my dad's pension might get cut. I'm just trying to point out that a lot of these things that people bring up when they talk about GM (job banks, super health insurance, high wages) are issues that are no longer the case. When my dad retired, they already had his plant converted to $14/hr non-union workers.
Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
Presumably, he mean that the NYT is a floundering company which has been devastated by a refusal to adapt to new business realities over the last decade. 5 years ago their stock was trading at $47. Now it is at $6. http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:NYT (For what it's worth, if they collapse I wouldn't bail them out, either.)
the nytimes isn't asking the government to deliver their papers.
yet.
Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're talking like his job was an entitlement. Companies go bust and people lose jobs, it happens a lot. The reason people are talking UAW workers that way, is not because they begrudge the individual worker like your father - they don't. It's because the car companies were not allowed to fire or lay off people as they wished, which gives a very strong impression of entitlement and job guarantees amongst UAW workers…
huh?? in the last 15 years gm has closed dozens of plants. yes, certainly the union fought to get the best deal collectively for their workers, but you have to have rocks in your head if you think people like my father felt entitled. they felt lucky to have a job. as for finding another job... you highlight my point! it's pretty fucking difficult to find another job when after 20 years the only thing you're qualified…
You're right, it is difficult. But where your Dad is at (the same place my Dad was at) is nothing more than the product of their own decisions. Is it anyone's fault but your Dad's that he's only qualified to work in a factory? Is it anyone's fault but my Dad's that he didn't learn about computers even though he saw them appearing everywhere?
My Dad was able to learn some new skills and eventually land on his feet after being unemployed for quite some time. Hopefully your Dad is able to do the same.
Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
#97All that talk about unions misses one much more systemic point. It's that linking social benefits to individual employment relationships is a bad idea. It creates dependencies that make the system inflexible. It reduces worker mobility. It creates long term obligations that individual companies, not matter how large, can never garantee.
It's a paternalistic model that puts companies in the position of families or states that care for people based not on merit but on human needs and dignity. Both are important but mixing them creates a conflict of interest.
Money is flexible. Use money to pay people for work. Not health plans and pensions, not stock options, just money and people can go and buy all of the former. Keep things simple.
Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
huh?? in the last 15 years gm has closed dozens of plants. yes, certainly the union fought to get the best deal collectively for their workers, but you have to have rocks in your head if you think people like my father felt entitled. they felt lucky to have a job. as for finding another job... you highlight my point! it's pretty fucking difficult to find another job when after 20 years the only thing you're qualified…
You're right, it is difficult. But where your Dad is at (the same place my Dad was at) is nothing more than the product of their own decisions. Is it anyone's fault but your Dad's that he's only qualified to work in a factory? Is it anyone's fault but my Dad's that he didn't learn about computers even though he saw them appearing everywhere? My Dad was able to learn some new skills and eventually land on his feet aft…
sure, no one is entitled to a job. that's not my point at all. things change and jobs change. what I was trying to explain is why my dad would travel 100mi to get to work. yeah sure, he could have went to med school or something, but he had a family to support and nearing retirement that was his best option. i feel it's pretty arrogant to even make a statement, "why did he just find another job". sure he could have, but i think just as my dad did, most people make rational choices given their situation.
to clear things up also, this is past tense. my dad retired. the greatest concern to me is GM not living up to their commitment to him in retirement benefits.
Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
#99They just canceled the bailout vote, so it looks like Bush will make the decision now.
Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
#100Mitt Romney. I'm supposed to take anything this asshole says seriously? Why?
Next up, Sarah Palin on Russian Policy, or Bill Kristol's bedwetting?