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Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#91

Post by Delphiki »

Anecdata, but a few weeks ago I drove from LA to SF in my 2018 Model 3 (long range, single motor). It has a 75 kWh battery pack, my drive was 417 miles, and I drove 70 mph for probably 90-95% of the trip. I used a total of 95 kWh, which equates to ~329 miles on a full charge (100-0%). My efficiency was 226 Wh/mi.

There are absolutely other times when I'll get substantially less range, but it's understandably when I'm driving faster of more aggressive, or it's colder outside, or it's primarily uphill, or there's a strong headwind, etc.

There are a lot of different factors that can affect a car's range (regardless if it's an EV or ICE), and it seems like Tesla has decided to show the EPA range on the dashboard because there's no way they could magically know where you're driving if it's not entered in the navigation system. Once you start navigation however, it's able to factor in all these externalities and give a very accurate estimate. On the first leg of the above trip, I arrived to charge within 3% of Tesla's estimate.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#92

Post by mrguyorama »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #16
olliej wrote: post #4

This one actually seems fair - literally the only reason I ever considered Tesla was the range. The only reason I didn’t buy any other EV was because I was waiting for them to catch up to the Tesla range. Turns out that advantage was a lie - I hope their competitors also sue them.

This suit isn't about the advertised range -- everybody advertises the EPA's rated range. The way the range is calculated does favour Teslas, but if you want that changed, you'd have to sue the EPA, not Tesla.

Tesla is the only one using that "EPA advertised range" as a way of calculating your remaining range. Everyone else uses the normal, ICE car way of monitoring current driving behavior to get instantaneous efficiency, and rolling average over time multiplied by remaining "fuel" in the tank.

Tesla is the only odd one out. Surely Tesla employees have driven cars before right? Surely they should understand that.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#93

Post by constantcrying »

mrguyorama wrote: post #88
redserk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked tech support at a couple of different organizations early in my career. It does not seem at all unusual to create a team dedicated to a particular class of issue so other support staff can focus on a broader range of issues.

This is an issue that tesla created on purpose though. These people are confused that their car is not going as far as THE RANGE DISPLAY shows they will go. Hundreds of millions of cars have been made over the past twenty years with range displays that you can trust to hit zero BEFORE you run out of gas, due to estimating with recent driving data, and probably a gentle bump down of the number to make sure drivers hav…

And what should Tesla do instead?

Putting a team together to tell customers their cars are fine seems completly legal and not a conspiracy in any way.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#94

Post by sdfignaionio »

lsaferite wrote: post #57
sdfignaionio wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two important things you're missing: 1. Tesla's estimates are not "highly accurate". They are alleged to use a deliberately optimistic estimate when the battery is near full, then gradually switch to a more realistic estimate as the battery drains. In particular they are alleged to incorrectly account for the weather. This means the car will always display nearly the advertised number at full charge (and on…

I know we are talking about EVs here, but my ICE has an estimated range display and _it_ isn't super accurate _and_ it doesn't take potential weather (or other factors like elevation) into account either. Why would you expect it to factor in _potential_ weather when giving a range estimate?

Allegedly,

1. Other companies have more accurate estimates than Tesla.

2. Tesla uses a different and more accurate algorithm when charge is low.

3. Tesla's estimates used to be more accurate.

It doesn't make sense to argue the problem is intractable when it has supposedly been solved by many companies, including Tesla itself.

>Why would you expect it to factor in _potential_ weather when giving a range estimate?

I wouldn't expect that. The cars have thermometers.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#95

Post by brianwawok »

vel0city wrote: post #41
brianwawok wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-cons... It's pretty dang high on the list in actual real world tested range.

I had a friend buy a Model Y Long Range (EPA 326mi) over a Mach E AWD Extended Range (EPA 270mi) mainly because the Y supposedly had better advertised range (they were similarly priced at the time). 56mi of range along with the big mental idea of a bit over 300 or under 300. In Edmonds testing the difference was really only 13mi. Really not that significant in the end.

The cars are just very different. MachE is a car with batteries. Model Y is an iPhone with wheels. Trying to buy for a single spec is a bit of crapshoot anyway.

I also suspect the range gap is more than 13 in winter, as the model Y has more advanced heat pumps.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#96

Post by constantcrying »

dragontamer wrote: post #78
constantcrying wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is about the claim that representatives told customers that is normal, that their cars have lower ranges than advertised. The allegedy cospiracy would be that Tesla managment and its employees were conspiring to quickly deal with customer complaints. But what is actually illegal there? Note that the representatives were truthful when they dismissed customers. Their cars were not broken.

Fraud is illegal. And all fraud is ... is just lying to a degree enough that the courts care. The more-and-more it is proven that your "just lying" is a coordinated effort across your company, the more and more it looks like fraud to ... well everybody.

But the suggestion that tesla was lying seems already far fetched. If anything their adertising was misleading.

>The more-and-more it is proven that your "just lying" is a coordinated effort across your company, the more and more it looks like fraud to ... well everybody.

But there is zero evidence for this. There is no lie here. At best there are misleading statememts about performance.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#97

Post by Nullabillity »

constantcrying wrote: post #7
dragontamer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tesla-exaggerate... Hypothetical Porsche didn't setup customer service teams to lie to customers on a mass-scale when the complaints came in though. We have evidence of Tesla service-cancellation teams. We have evidence of Tesla's software purposefully being inaccurate when above 50% charge, and then slowly becoming more accurate when reaching 50% or less charge. This is li…

>lie to customers Is that alleged? I saw only the support telling customers that this is expected. "There is nothing wrong with your car, don't bother comming. It is expected that sometimes your car gets galf the range." is not a lie at all. It seems absolutely truthful and in fact the total opposite of exaggerating the range of the car. >We have evidence of Tesla service-cancellation teams. We have evidence of Tesla…

> Is that alleged? I saw only the support telling customers that this is expected. "There is nothing wrong with your car, don't bother comming. It is expected that sometimes your car gets galf the range." is not a lie at all. It seems absolutely truthful and in fact the total opposite of exaggerating the range of the car.

It demonstrates that their original range claim was a lie.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#98

Post by sdfignaionio »

TheRealSteel wrote: post #52
jackmott42 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla display that but also displays highly accurate estimates of any trip you plan. To me the real party at fault with EV range in the USA is the EPA, which combines city and highway range in a single number, which inflates the highway number. Every EV that is sold advertises this inflated EPA number. Nobody cares about city range, just publish highway range, or both, like we do with gas cars.

How can you say nobody cares about city range? That's all I care about.

People don't generally drive 200 miles in the city in one stretch.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#99

Post by bryanlarsen »

mrguyorama wrote: post #89
bryanlarsen wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, a Tesla driven at 30km/h will exceed its EPA range by about 20%.

data from 3300 drivers from the very article we are discussing disagrees with your single anecdote.

Are you looking at a different article? In my reading of the linked article there are three anecdotes of ~200 mile trips, most assuredly not done at 30km/h.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#100

Post by Nullabillity »

constantcrying wrote: post #96
dragontamer wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fraud is illegal. And all fraud is ... is just lying to a degree enough that the courts care. The more-and-more it is proven that your "just lying" is a coordinated effort across your company, the more and more it looks like fraud to ... well everybody.

But the suggestion that tesla was lying seems already far fetched. If anything their adertising was misleading. >The more-and-more it is proven that your "just lying" is a coordinated effort across your company, the more and more it looks like fraud to ... well everybody. But there is zero evidence for this. There is no lie here. At best there are misleading statememts about performance.

Intentionally misleading people.. is exactly the definition of lying?
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