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x86 is dead, long live x86

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Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#91

Post by hota_mazi »

edgyquant wrote: post #11
jimmaswell wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what? I would never buy an Apple laptop and no one I know has one either. The Windows "gaming laptop" I got a few years ago for game dev is perfectly adequate and has features missing from Macbooks: - ethernet port - hdmi port - multiple usb A and C ports - solid keyboard Same for my work laptop, again Windows/x86 and no one I know with a work laptop is supplied a Mac either.

We live in different worlds. All engineers I know have Macs and the ones that don’t have Linux. The one guy on my team who uses windows is a constant problem as he has to find work arounds for every process we have/service we build.

You probably live in the US and parent lives... anywhere else in the world really.

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#92

Post by hota_mazi »

redwall_hp wrote: post #18
edgyquant wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We live in different worlds. All engineers I know have Macs and the ones that don’t have Linux. The one guy on my team who uses windows is a constant problem as he has to find work arounds for every process we have/service we build.

Yep. I work in an entire office of engineers with only Macs (mostly ARM ones now) and I only have a Mac at home, besides a very old ThinkPad running Ubuntu. (Aside from FFXIV on MacOS, I've moved any gaming to PS5 and Switch.) I haven't actively used Windows since 2008. It's such an obnoxious OS to use, and I have never seen a Windows laptop with quality in the same zip code as a Mac. There's always a terrible touch…

> I haven't actively used Windows since 2008. It's such an obnoxious OS to use

You might want to modernize your perception of it, holding on to 15 year old views is not a very smart move in the tech industry.

Windows 10 and 11 are a joy to use, and to develop. I used a Mac for 15 years and switched to Windows to develop 5 years ago, and now macOS looks extremely antiquated and creaky for development.

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#93

Post by scarface_74 »

arp242 wrote: post #19
scarface_74 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Based on what? I would never buy an Apple laptop and no one I know has one either Yes because no one that you know buys an Apple laptop that must mean that Apple isn’t selling any… > Same for my work laptop, again Windows/x86 and no one I know with a work laptop is supplied a Mac either. I find the lack of self awareness…amusing. Because no one you know uses a Mac laptop, that must mean no one uses one. Well my ane…

"Apple isn't selling any laptops" wasn't what was said. The original claim was x86 has "thrown in the white flag" and that Apple dominates the laptop market, which is a pretty ridiculous claim since x86 is still the vast majority of laptop sales and Windows is still the dominant laptop OS.

> Apple isn't selling any laptops" wasn't what was said

The parent poster said

> would never buy an Apple laptop and no one I know has one either

What relevance then was there in the statement that the original poster made?

> Apple dominates the laptop market, which is a pretty ridiculous claim since x86 is still the vast majority of laptop sales and Windows is still the dominant laptop OS.

Nor did I argue otherwise. I merely called out the silliness of the statement that because the parent poster “doesn’t know anyone who owns one” or that because every developer he knows uses a Windows laptop, that his anecdotal experience has any relevance.

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#94

Post by scarface_74 »

havblue wrote: post #35
arp242 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Apple isn't selling any laptops" wasn't what was said. The original claim was x86 has "thrown in the white flag" and that Apple dominates the laptop market, which is a pretty ridiculous claim since x86 is still the vast majority of laptop sales and Windows is still the dominant laptop OS.

I don't personally see MacBooks as a viable platform either right now, but I would say that this looks like a steady decline for windows x86 laptops until Chrome laptops take over or an arm-based windows replacement takes hold. "Hey this isn't a surrender, it's a war of attrition for the next five years!!!"

> I don't personally see MacBooks as a viable platform either right now

But yet Apple is selling millions. Someone must see it as a viable experience.

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#95

Post by scarface_74 »

debugnik wrote: post #33
scarface_74 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Based on what? I would never buy an Apple laptop and no one I know has one either Yes because no one that you know buys an Apple laptop that must mean that Apple isn’t selling any… > Same for my work laptop, again Windows/x86 and no one I know with a work laptop is supplied a Mac either. I find the lack of self awareness…amusing. Because no one you know uses a Mac laptop, that must mean no one uses one. Well my ane…

They're not arguing that Apple doesn't sell laptops, they're refuting that "Windows, Intel, AMD and Nvidia have [...] given the laptop market to Apple". Unless one thinks the laptop market only exists in the US, this idea simply can't match reality, not yet anyway.

If they are arguing that, don’t you think their anecdotal “proof” is silly?

> I would never buy an Apple laptop and no one I know has one either.

>no one I know with a work laptop is supplied a Mac either.

I don’t know anyone that uses WeChat. Wouldn’t that be a silly argument?

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#96

Post by babypuncher »

slfnflctd wrote: post #32

When I think about how long chips like the 6502 have still been in active use (almost 50 years now), it is hard to conceive of a world where there isn't a significant presence of x86 activity for the rest of my life. The majority of 'the market' may go elsewhere, but for a gazillion reasons, x86 will not be disappearing for quite a while. At this point it would honestly surprise me if we didn't at least have high qua…

As we learned from Terminator 2, the machines that eventually rise up to eradicate humanity will still be running some kind of 6502 derivative.

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#97

Post by babypuncher »

sneed_chucker wrote: post #55
slfnflctd wrote: post #32

When I think about how long chips like the 6502 have still been in active use (almost 50 years now), it is hard to conceive of a world where there isn't a significant presence of x86 activity for the rest of my life. The majority of 'the market' may go elsewhere, but for a gazillion reasons, x86 will not be disappearing for quite a while. At this point it would honestly surprise me if we didn't at least have high qua…

Are 6502 chips still used? What's the application?

Skynet is due to start producing their T-800 line of Terminators in 2026, which will use a 6502-derived CPU.

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#98

Post by hedgehog »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #73
Gordonjcp wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stuff like 6502s and Z80s are a bit like little single-cylinder engines - the world will move onto all sorts of interesting new places, but something somewhere will always be powered by a wee Briggs & Stratton that starts first pull of the string, and we'll be glad of it.

We'll always need tiny cores, but it's worth noting that RISC-V can squeeze down to pretty small sizes and is so much nicer to use. Notably you can go smaller than a 68k or 8086.

I suspect 32-bit RISC-V cores will become the minimum unit of processor for new designs. Not a meaningful cost increase over say a 6502 (or ARM) to build, but the convenience of having mainstream compiler support and that kind of thing does make a difference in the cost of building a product.

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#99

Post by babypuncher »

jimmaswell wrote: post #7
retskrad wrote: post #4

x86 lives on desktop now. Windows, Intel, AMD and Nvidia have more or less thrown in the white flag and given the laptop market to Apple.

Based on what? I would never buy an Apple laptop and no one I know has one either. The Windows "gaming laptop" I got a few years ago for game dev is perfectly adequate and has features missing from Macbooks: - ethernet port - hdmi port - multiple usb A and C ports - solid keyboard Same for my work laptop, again Windows/x86 and no one I know with a work laptop is supplied a Mac either.

Macbooks have HDMI ports and solid keyboards.

I don't see ethernet ports making a comeback on thin laptops anytime soon though. They are handy for LAN parties, so bulky gaming laptops will keep shipping with them, but for everyone else it makes more sense to leave that functionality to a dock.

Re: x86 is dead, long live x86

#100

Post by tracker1 »

slfnflctd wrote: post #32

When I think about how long chips like the 6502 have still been in active use (almost 50 years now), it is hard to conceive of a world where there isn't a significant presence of x86 activity for the rest of my life. The majority of 'the market' may go elsewhere, but for a gazillion reasons, x86 will not be disappearing for quite a while. At this point it would honestly surprise me if we didn't at least have high qua…

Given the new 128-core AMD server parts are on-par with ARM in terms of power efficiency and capable of more raw compute, it may even grow a bit.

I think there's lots of room for ARM, Risc-V and x86_64 in the future. There's reasons to support any of them over the others. And given how well developer tool are getting support across them all, it may actually grow a lot. I think the down side is a lot of the secondary compute accelerators, such as what intel is pushing and what the various ARM and Risc-V implementations include in practice.

The further from a common core you get, the more complex porting or cross platform tooling gets. Even if for big gains in some parts. For example, working on personal/hobby projects in ARM boards that aren't RPi is sometimes an exercise in frustration, with no mainline support at all.

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