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Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

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Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#91

Post by AlbertCory »

tptacek wrote: post #88
AlbertCory wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is 100% wrong. Even in the very capital of corruption (in the US, anyway), Chicago, the slogan was "good government is good politics." In other words, doing a good job with the boring stuff is also good for getting elected.

Could we not, with the regional slurs here? Chicago has a lot of public corruption cases largely because it's a huge city. Louisiana and DC have the highest per-capita corruption, followed by Tennessee. It's not that the point you're making here is totally invalid --- there's public corruption in Chicago, to be sure! --- but there are other ways to say it. The actual capital of public corruption in the US is, as it t…

I grew up there & I'll continue to say that. I don't know where you're getting your statistics from, but Chicago has been doing it for a century, so they own it.

It's an unusual year there when a politician does not get indicted.

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#92

Post by tptacek »

AlbertCory wrote: post #91
tptacek wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could we not, with the regional slurs here? Chicago has a lot of public corruption cases largely because it's a huge city. Louisiana and DC have the highest per-capita corruption, followed by Tennessee. It's not that the point you're making here is totally invalid --- there's public corruption in Chicago, to be sure! --- but there are other ways to say it. The actual capital of public corruption in the US is, as it t…

I grew up there & I'll continue to say that. I don't know where you're getting your statistics from, but Chicago has been doing it for a century, so they own it. It's an unusual year there when a politician does not get indicted.

The stats come from the DOJ. The reason not to deploy regional slurs is because they beg for unproductive threads challenging and refining the claims. For instance: it is simply not the case that Chicago is meaningfully the "capital of corruption". It has more absolute public corruption cases, but does not lead relative to its population (you see similar things with the "most dangerous city" stuff).

I'm not saying you shouldn't have pointed out public corruption in Chicago. I'm just saying you should be more careful with the words you pick.

(As is probably obvious, I'm a lifelong Chicagoan).

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#94

Post by benj111 »

dotancohen wrote: post #90
benj111 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the language thing covers it. Plenty of European countries have more than one language, only recently got 1 unified language. You have countries like India that manage to make a cohesive country out of disparate peoples. That's not to say these aren't contributing factors. My current 'theory' / observation is that sub Saharan Africa never really had large scale civilisations, I wonder if that colours th…

Why even scale anything up? If these peoples have been living and fighting and reproducing successfully for millennia, why do Europeans and Americans think it necessary to get group them into states and force them to form large-scale heterogeneous bodies of law? Does that just make it easier to remove the mineral wealth from the continent?

Very true.

Or do they need to develop their own concept of the state, or at the risk of sounding imperialistic, do they need to learn the concept of the nation state?

Broadly speaking I would say having structures larger than a tribe is a net benefit. Whatever form that may take.

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#95

Post by AlbertCory »

tptacek wrote: post #92
AlbertCory wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up there & I'll continue to say that. I don't know where you're getting your statistics from, but Chicago has been doing it for a century, so they own it. It's an unusual year there when a politician does not get indicted.

The stats come from the DOJ. The reason not to deploy regional slurs is because they beg for unproductive threads challenging and refining the claims. For instance: it is simply not the case that Chicago is meaningfully the "capital of corruption". It has more absolute public corruption cases, but does not lead relative to its population (you see similar things with the "most dangerous city" stuff). I'm not saying yo…

Sorry, but it simply IS the case that Chicago is the "capital of corruption". It's not a "regional slur." You're entitled to your opinion, but so am I: I went to the high school (Fenger) that the real Eliot Ness went to, and so did both of my parents.

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#96

Post by tptacek »

AlbertCory wrote: post #95
tptacek wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stats come from the DOJ. The reason not to deploy regional slurs is because they beg for unproductive threads challenging and refining the claims. For instance: it is simply not the case that Chicago is meaningfully the "capital of corruption". It has more absolute public corruption cases, but does not lead relative to its population (you see similar things with the "most dangerous city" stuff). I'm not saying yo…

Sorry, but it simply IS the case that Chicago is the "capital of corruption". It's not a "regional slur." You're entitled to your opinion, but so am I: I went to the high school (Fenger) that the real Eliot Ness went to, and so did both of my parents.

So as long as we're clear that you're saying this because of the mythology of Al Capone and I'm saying it because I'm looking at current DOJ per capita corruption statistics, I'm comfortable leaving the thread where it is.

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#97

Post by gadflyinyoureye »

sgt101 wrote: post #54
gadflyinyoureye wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you know first hand how truly wonderful it was. I've heard nothing but good things.

Visit Norway.

They say they are not socialist. https://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/denmark-tells-...

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#98

Post by AlbertCory »

tptacek wrote: post #96
AlbertCory wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but it simply IS the case that Chicago is the "capital of corruption". It's not a "regional slur." You're entitled to your opinion, but so am I: I went to the high school (Fenger) that the real Eliot Ness went to, and so did both of my parents.

So as long as we're clear that you're saying this because of the mythology of Al Capone and I'm saying it because I'm looking at current DOJ per capita corruption statistics, I'm comfortable leaving the thread where it is.

just to amend that: it isn't just Al Capone and Frank Nitti, which was the 20's and 30's. Richard J. Daley and his son Richie continued into the 90's, with a brief interregnum.

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#99

Post by [deleted] »

AlbertCory wrote: post #98
tptacek wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So as long as we're clear that you're saying this because of the mythology of Al Capone and I'm saying it because I'm looking at current DOJ per capita corruption statistics, I'm comfortable leaving the thread where it is.

just to amend that: it isn't just Al Capone and Frank Nitti, which was the 20's and 30's. Richard J. Daley and his son Richie continued into the 90's, with a brief interregnum.

[deleted]

Re: Why South Africa Is on the Brink of Chaos

#100

Post by tptacek »

AlbertCory wrote: post #98
tptacek wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So as long as we're clear that you're saying this because of the mythology of Al Capone and I'm saying it because I'm looking at current DOJ per capita corruption statistics, I'm comfortable leaving the thread where it is.

just to amend that: it isn't just Al Capone and Frank Nitti, which was the 20's and 30's. Richard J. Daley and his son Richie continued into the 90's, with a brief interregnum.

Oh, Nitti and Richard M. Daley. Good point. I guess the DOJ stats must be wrong.

It's just a super weird argument is all, like: I can see a variety of ways to make an argument that Chicago is super corrupt, but none of them involve an organized crime empire based on bootlegging Canadian Club.

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