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The deindustrialization of Germany

politico.eu

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Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#91

Post by alephnerd »

aeyes wrote: post #87
tdrz wrote: post #47

I found the article quite good but has missed a couple of points that need to be mentioned: 1. The attitude of the average German consumer It seems to me that one of the national sports in Germany is to find cheaper deals for pretty much anything (and then brag about it). Even if it's fractions of a euro! After trimming down on everything that they could, the manufacturers and service providers had to finally reduce…

1. Made in Germany for consumer products might be worth less today but the export of industrial supplies like machines, chemicals and materials are much more important to the economy as a whole. Outside of Germany it is still quite respected - to the point where foreign companies give themselves and their products German sounding names while slapping German flags on their boxes to sell more. 2. Why software Made in G…

1. You are correct that German industrial exports are highly respected. The issue is manufacturers in other countries (eg. Poland, Czechia, Hungary, Türkiye, China, Romania, Spain, Mexico) have caught up. And oftentimes those manufacturers are themselves German companies. This has in turn commodified a major portion of the German industrial base.

2. France has a similarly ossified financial culture, but has a much more robust tech industry compared to Germany (eg. Ubisoft, Datadog, Capgemeni, Dassault Systemes, Dataiku, Alcatel-Lucent, Thales, Orange, etc)

Germany has a strong base, but some reform is absolutely needed to upskill their economy.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#92

Post by nradov »

Archelaos wrote: post #86
nradov wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just energy but specifically access to natural gas. Even when not burned for power and heat it acts as an essential feedstock for much of the German chemicals industry. With flows from Russia being reduced or eliminated there is no choice but to relocate production.

The German government is subsidising gas consumption by industry very heavily at the moment to prevent this. A press release on the relevant legislation can be found here (in German): https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/aktuelles/energieprei... The most important section in this matter reads in English translation as follows: "From January 2023, industrial customers will receive 70% of their natural gas consumptio…

Right but that level of subsidization is unsustainable. What is the end game? Cheap Russian natural gas is unlikely to return soon enough to save the German chemicals industry.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#93

Post by mistrial9 »

alephnerd wrote: post #78
haizhung wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politico is owned by Axel Springer, which is the German equivalent of Fox News, if that explains it.

I keep seeing people saying this about Politico and it's total FUD. I have friends who work there and it's pretty firewalled from Axel Springer. This conspiracy theory about the Politico portion seems to have started in r/Europe and r/WorldNews a couple months ago and kept getting repeated since.

the name of the publication has the word "politics" in the title?

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#94

Post by julienfr112 »

alephnerd wrote: post #91
aeyes wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Made in Germany for consumer products might be worth less today but the export of industrial supplies like machines, chemicals and materials are much more important to the economy as a whole. Outside of Germany it is still quite respected - to the point where foreign companies give themselves and their products German sounding names while slapping German flags on their boxes to sell more. 2. Why software Made in G…

1. You are correct that German industrial exports are highly respected. The issue is manufacturers in other countries (eg. Poland, Czechia, Hungary, Türkiye, China, Romania, Spain, Mexico) have caught up. And oftentimes those manufacturers are themselves German companies. This has in turn commodified a major portion of the German industrial base. 2. France has a similarly ossified financial culture, but has a much mo…

Germany has SAP, ...

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#96

Post by alephnerd »

julienfr112 wrote: post #94
alephnerd wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. You are correct that German industrial exports are highly respected. The issue is manufacturers in other countries (eg. Poland, Czechia, Hungary, Türkiye, China, Romania, Spain, Mexico) have caught up. And oftentimes those manufacturers are themselves German companies. This has in turn commodified a major portion of the German industrial base. 2. France has a similarly ossified financial culture, but has a much mo…

Germany has SAP, ...

But that's just 1 champion (well, actually 2 because Siemens has a robust R&D presence) whereas there are multiple in France. In general, R&D in the software and electronics space seems stronger in France due to the robust MIC, Aviation, and Telco sector spending a lot of money on R&D

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#97

Post by eliaspro »

jterrys wrote: post #69
badpun wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The childred didn't earn it either.

Imagine working hard to guarantee a good future for your children and having the state step in and taking it away.

Inheritance tax is not about taking it all away. It's about heavily texting everything beyond a reasonable amount. Even if you could at max inherit "just" a million Euro, that be much more than enough to start a comfortable life, while at the same time eliminating a huge factor of the ever widening poverty/wealth gap.

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#98

Post by alephnerd »

mistrial9 wrote: post #93
alephnerd wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep seeing people saying this about Politico and it's total FUD. I have friends who work there and it's pretty firewalled from Axel Springer. This conspiracy theory about the Politico portion seems to have started in r/Europe and r/WorldNews a couple months ago and kept getting repeated since.

the name of the publication has the word "politics" in the title?

Politico is DC slang for someone who works politics adjacent (hence why their competitor "The Hill" is named that)

Politico started as a blog and newsletter on the Hill back in the late 2000s/early 2010s where we'd leak gossip, but they had amazing product-market fit and ended up opening an EU office a couple years ago (lots of Hill adjacent people also worked in Parliament and Bundestag via early career Atlanticist programs).

A couple of my own quotes have ended up in Politico

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#99

Post by patall »

tasubotadas wrote: post #89
sparrc wrote: post #25

Opposite lots of commenters here deriding the article as "all over the place", I thought it was very well-written and comprehensive. Seems like there are concerns across a wide swath of companies and industries in Germany. Reading between the lines, the proposed solution seems something like lower corporate taxes (currently making decamping to Dublin more attractive) and lower energy prices. The risk brought up is th…

Yes. The worst is yet to come. - Germany is heavily reliant on industry (like Autos) - Cheap energy has ended due to war in Ukraine - The available replacements are going to be even more expensive (and they are still closing more nuclear plants) - The production costs will increase reducing their competitiveness even further - The competitives was bad even before this (VW vs Tesla anyone?) - Once the huge layoffs and…

> - Cheap energy has ended due to war in Ukraine

While there is some truth to that, energy prices are lower than at the start of the war.

> - The available replacements are going to be even more expensive (and they are still closing more nuclear plants)

There are no nuclear plants left. And Germany just got 12.6 billion from auctioning of building rights for 4 new wind parks (with capped price limits of 6.3ct/kW/h.

> - The competitives was bad even before this (VW vs Tesla anyone?)

How is that? VW has a quite broad electric car range by now. Tesla is hip (which VW also tries to be) but that's about it

> - Once the huge layoffs and closures will begin, the entire economy will enter recession

The german labour market is quite strong (except maybe construction, but there's not many germans working there anyways). Problem is rather that too many people are retiring (and that the average age is so high)

> So... who nows. Germany is probably going to pull a "Greece" on us :).

The budget of the german state is almost balanced. How does it look in the US?

Re: The deindustrialization of Germany

#100

Post by wernercd »

brazzy wrote: post #80
wernercd wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the parents did and, as such, get to decide where to put that money. Again: Always time to take money you didn't earn. Greed is an ugly emotion and socialism/marxism/theft is a fail no matter how you try to dress it up.

Seriously? It's not billionaires who "earn" money by doing nothing who are greedy, but those who think such greed should not be allowed to perpetuate across generations? That is the position you're trying to defend?

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