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Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

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Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#91

Post by TMWNN »

blackbear_ wrote: post #83
atleastoptimal wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's way easier to get into elite schools in Europe than top tier American ivies.

Citation needed?

The facts are straightforward.

Oxbridge's admissions rates are not the lowest in the UK; schools no one outside the UK has heard of, like Warwick, have the lowest, and their admissions rates are still two to three times higher than the Ivies'. In many countries, universities admit all applicants that meet the qualifications. An example is Switzerland, where ETH Zurich—by every measure, among the world's finest universities—admits every Swiss with a Matura (university-track high school diploma) who applies.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#92

Post by kelnos »

It seems a little weird to generalize one's friend group to a supposed problem at all Ivy League[0] schools. Although, I'm sure there are students like this at most highly-ranked universities.

A lot of the social and anti-responsibility aspects of this (like telling friends that you didn't fail because you didn't even try in the first place) sounds, for lack of a better way of putting it, very late millennial and gen-Z. I was a pretty terrible undergraduate student (though I didn't succumb to the vices OP mentions), but at least I owned up to it and did my best to salvage my education once I hit a fairly deep low and recognized that I needed to make some changes if I wanted to be successful.

[0] Is this moniker even all that relevant nowadays? I attended an Ivy 20+ years ago and even then it didn't feel like it mattered much. The US News & World Reports rankings were what people cared about, and there were plenty of non-Ivy schools at the top of that list.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#93

Post by sureglymop »

birdyrooster wrote: post #44
doctorpangloss wrote: post #33

In my experience with my interns, many of whom graduated from Harvard like me, some students at all universities suffer from burnout from their strenuous childhoods. So I sympathize that some kids need to chill a little. I wouldn’t call it self sabotage, but I understand the author is just trying to understand their classmates better. I’m not sure if a cry for help / agitating at the university will matter. I’m not s…

For me it was that my ADHD was well managed in the highly structured confines of my parental-supervised public education. Once I was put into a dorm by myself for the first time in my life and simultaneously stripped of the structure I previously depended on, I failed almost predictably. In my adult life, covid or forced working from home, has lead to the same trouble. It's hard to consistently achieve when I am by m…

I think you should be careful about criticizing yourself too much (or comparing to others). You have ADHD, a real handicap. Statistically speaking you are probably doing amazingly well if you consider how much more likely people with ADHD are to become addicted to substances, how much more likely they are to get into car crashes, how much more likely they are to end up homeless or unemployed. And I'm pretty sure statistically speaking the majority of people with ADHD does not get a college degree and is less likely to do so. I'm not saying you should "victimize" yourself or something but it's just that nothing you mentioned surprised me when you said ADHD.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#94

Post by meindnoch »

Gareth321 wrote: post #76
p-e-w wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who attend institutions considered "elite" have on average been told since early childhood that they are part of the elite. In my experience, such people tend to have less self-discipline and fewer inhibitions than regular folks. That's a natural consequence of knowing that nothing truly bad can ever happen to you, no matter what you do.

While true, the estimated average IQ at Harvard is 142. IQ is highly associated with self-control and discipline.

Estimated average IQ from SAT score.

So it's bullshit. They just cram SAT prep non-stop with private tutors.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#95

Post by nicbou »

atdt wrote: post #43

A large portion of the student body at every American college is "drowning themselves in pleasure and mindlessness". The simple, naturalistic explanation is that when Harvard students abandon themselves to partying and procrastination, it is for the same reason that students at Boston University or Colorado State do it: i.e., they're young, horny, and on the loose for the first time in life, and their mental circuitr…

There you go.

Why are people lazy and self-sabotaging? Because they're human. They want to do pleasant things more than they want to do unpleasant things.

It's just school. A few years down the road people don't care about most of what you did there. Better enjoy the ride as much as you can without torpedoing your career.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#96

Post by complex_exp »

lordnacho wrote: post #89
blackbear_ wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed?

I think you can still find the admission rates for Oxbridge online. Keep in mind you can only apply to one or the other when comparing. It varies a lot depending on course, but here is Oxford: https://www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-figures/admissions-stat... For undergrad it's 14%. Harvard: https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics 3% That's quite some difference, especially if we consider that Harva…

I've always had a problem with admission rates, since they obviously depend on self-selection (and supply of schools).

Germany is a good example here, they have a wide spectrum of schools starting already past primary education (around 10 years old). Many of those schools, those of the "mid" and especially "lower" rank do not bash into children's heads that they absolutely must go to a good university or they will be a failure. As a result those kids do not apply there, instead they go into internships and get a job. Overall there is a continuum that a) reduces pressure on people that probably shouldn't study medicine or law, b) gives better education to talented children by putting them together in more aligned groups.

Crucially, the admission to those schools past age of 10 is not zip-code based. Admitting children by zip-code past the very first school where you learn how to sit, read, write and multiply numbers is nonsense.

A process like this will result in a higher university admission rate, all else being equal, including the "true difficulty" of getting into a specific university.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#97

Post by meindnoch »

the6thwonder wrote: post #11
josh_fyi wrote: post #5

I studied at Harvard and the answer is that they want to pretend to be so smart and talented that they don't need to work. The image is of the effete aristocrat who enjoys life without lifting a finger. Think of George W. Bush: Got into Yale (Harvard too!) because his blue-blood line always did. Mediocre grades. Lots of alcohol and drugs. (Quit that later.) Avoided Vietnam with the cushiest fun job as a fighter pilot…

It would be ironic if he did work extremely hhard and gave you this perception of effortlessness.

He was also acting like a moron on purpose? Give the man an Oscar!

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#98

Post by ineedasername »

Just maybe there are some unique flavors to this experience in elite schools but the general phenomenon is found everywhere on every college campus, and possibly anywhere there’s a clear transitionary period from a time of less responsibility into the realities imposed by growing into true adulthood.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#99

Post by lordnacho »

One reason I haven't heard yet is that the work gets harder.

Before I went to Oxford, I'd never run into anything mathy that I couldn't understand. I don't mean that I got it right the first time, though that tended to happen, but in high school I either just got it with no problem, or I understood the answer when I saw the explanation. This goes for both math/science class itself and math contests that I enjoyed doing. No real mysteries, either trivial mistakes or some angle you hadn't seen, but well within reach.

Then in uni I would run into problem sheets where I not only could not get the answer, I couldn't even find a page in the ten books that seemed relevant. Neither could my study partners. I'd show up at the tutorial and the tutor would throw up some equations that made it seem like a five minute job, when I'd sat in the library for 5 hours having discovered nothing. I'm talking something like a 10 problem sheet where between me and my buddies we managed 2 correct answers, 2 somewhat close, and 6 complete mysteries.

This can be a shock. People react in different ways, and one reaction is to not try.

In the end the thing to do is... study harder. When you understand these problems in depth you are no longer doing an equation fishing expedition, you actually understand what you are looking for.

Re: Why do Ivy League students self-sabotage?

#100

Post by hindsightbias »

searealist wrote: post #51
josh_fyi wrote: post #5

I studied at Harvard and the answer is that they want to pretend to be so smart and talented that they don't need to work. The image is of the effete aristocrat who enjoys life without lifting a finger. Think of George W. Bush: Got into Yale (Harvard too!) because his blue-blood line always did. Mediocre grades. Lots of alcohol and drugs. (Quit that later.) Avoided Vietnam with the cushiest fun job as a fighter pilot…

What percentage of Harvard students would you say got in through family connections vs worked hard? Why do you focus on the former?

wiki says:

> A 2019 National Bureau of Economic Research working paper by Peter Arcidiacono found that 43% of students admitted to Harvard College were either athletes, legacies, members of the "Dean's" or "Director's" lists of relations of donors or prominent figures

So mostly all the white folk.

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