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Using loophole, Seward County seizes millions from motorists without convictions

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Re: Using loophole, Seward County seizes millions from motorists without convictions

#91
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trafficking cannabis through Nebraska is almost certainly a felony, and, as for attempt liability, you could do worse than this comic explanation of how it works: https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=344 So: those county sheriffs probably weren't lying that they could jam Bouldin up --- not simply because they can do that to anybody with $18k in cash in their van, but because of the totality of the evidence they collected.

But he didn’t traffic anything though Nebraska. Did they have evidence that he intended to? Seems unlikely.

Yes, they did.

Re: Using loophole, Seward County seizes millions from motorists without convictions

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

drivers either allow the search "I have nothing to hide", or the drug dog gives a false positive for probable cause the police aren't skipping these procedures

The seizure part is more relevant here.

Okay. Well look at the current case law.

The courts are not in a place to invalidate existing laws, so the legislatures are required to change those laws.

Or a clarifying constitutional amendment is required.

If you can think of a shortcut nobody else thought of then go for it.

Re: Using loophole, Seward County seizes millions from motorists without convictions

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The us doesn't have wide spread fast direct money transfer. So cash is a good way to get stuff done in many cases. Such as buying a car.

But you can literally walk into a branch of your bank with a debit card and withdraw that amount in like 5 minutes. The only reason to carry this much cash across multiple state lines I can imagine is him not wanting to leave a paper trail and withdrawing large amounts outside of his home state.

[deleted]

Re: Using loophole, Seward County seizes millions from motorists without convictions

#94
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But he didn’t traffic anything though Nebraska. Did they have evidence that he intended to? Seems unlikely.

Yes, they did.

Ok you didn’t mention it unless I’m misreading things. What evidence did they find as to his future travel plans?

Maybe with 18k he was planning on taking a longer route home or retiring in Colorado or something.

Re: Using loophole, Seward County seizes millions from motorists without convictions

#95

Haven’t we been hearing about the horrors of civil asset forfeiture for more than a decade? Why is this still happening? Is there any sizeable constituency for this? Does anyone think this is a good idea, other than the corrupt law enforcement officers who are benefiting?

> Why is this still happening? What would cause it to stop happening? State control over the police in the US is imperfect, and, since the US is a fundamentally flawed democracy for deep structural reasons, popular control over the state is even more limited. Thus there are two separate reasons why this wouldn’t be stopped even if most people were against it (which is by no means clear anyway).

[deleted]

Re: Using loophole, Seward County seizes millions from motorists without convictions

#96
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they did.

Ok you didn’t mention it unless I’m misreading things. What evidence did they find as to his future travel plans? Maybe with 18k he was planning on taking a longer route home or retiring in Colorado or something.

The text messages. Remember: even in Colorado, random people can't sell weed --- if the person he was texting wasn't a licensed dealer, he's got problems, and: casual buyers just rolling through Colorado don't generally text licensed dealers; you just show up and buy. If he was planning on retiring in Colorado, he could have told that to the sheriffs --- he did not, but rather told a story that fenced him off from alibis like that (see: "don't talk to the police").

Nebraska is a "substantial step" attempt liability state (he's lucky he didn't get pulled over in Kansas, which is an "any overt act" state!). Maybe he'd have had a good case; maybe the evidence wouldn't be compelling enough for a Nebraska jury. But maybe that case survives long enough for $18k to be a bargain, compared to the legal fees to beat the trafficking rap.

I don't know. But these details weren't in the article --- the summary that was presented was deliberately sanded down to make Bouldin more sympathetic. By the logic on this thread --- logic I largely agree with --- it shouldn't matter how sympathetic Bouldin is. The author of the article should have trusted us with the whole story.

Re: Using loophole, Seward County seizes millions from motorists without convictions

#97
post #55

Without wanting to offer an opinion on the case presented in this article, and certainly not wanting to argue in favor of civil asset forfeiture, which is obviously abused nationwide, the author of this news piece definitely smoothed down the facts alleged in Bouldin's case: The officer testified to various pieces of information that he obtained during the stop that led him to believe that Bouldin intended to purchas…

I have to agree here. The author, I would argue, does the topic a disservice by not presenting the details of the state's arguments and evidence against Bouldin, and not more clearly distinguishing stories of two methods here.

The "abandonment" form and negotiation, sounds quite a bit like legalized bribery. But with Bouldin, given the evidence (to what you quote, the supreme court summary [1] adds that his prior conviction involved twelve pounds of marijuana, and that his car had a vacuum sealer and boxes of vacuum seal bags) he was, more likely than not, on a trip to smuggle marijuana.

But rather than being something to be hidden in discussing the case, that Bouldin was more likely than not to be planning on smuggling is, I would argue, an example of one of the major problems with civil forfeiture: it subverts the justice system by moving cases from criminal standards of beyond reasonable doubt to civil standards of preponderance of the evidence. The American justice system is not built on convicting people who are more likely than not to be guilty, nor on declining to even prosecute them, which might be much less profitable to the county, in favor of just taking their money.

And at the same time, that it uses civil cases is what makes it harder to combat. It doesn't seem like the courts here had to be willing participants in this behavior, or accept ridiculous evidence, they just had to apply the law and civil standards. The money was more likely than not to be for the purpose of smuggling marijuana. With those standards, it doesn't seem likely that Bouldin had much of a case. The problem is that those are not supposed to be the standards, and that the process seems to create very problematic incentives.

Without taking an opinion on drugs themselves, or laws around them, a cynical view here is that civil forfeiture used in this way actually makes it in the interest of the county to encourage drug trafficking through their jurisdiction, and to avoid catching traffickers with drugs, or catching them too often. How much more convenient it must be to simply take some cash, without the need to actually arrest and prosecute anyone. And how much more profitable, rather than imprisoning a trafficker, to let potential traffickers continue on their way, their cash seized, to continue trafficking and thus have some chance of being caught and have their cash seized again. And surely it would not be wise to take money too often, or make trafficking too difficult, along that route, in which case traffickers might choose to take their business elsewhere. It seems to make the process more like a bizarre and adversarial tariff scheme rather than anti-drug enforcement.

So, in those senses, even if it is mostly, or even only, taking money from likely traffickers, it is still extremely problematic. There should not be a need to hide this when discussing it.

[1] https://supremecourt.nebraska.gov/state-v-eighteen-thousand-...

Re: Using loophole, Seward County seizes millions from motorists without convictions

#98

While the cited behaviour is really astonishing, as a EU citizen, I must say that I still find it very curious that somebody drives around the country with that large amount of cash. I'd never (and most people here wouldn't either) travel with more than, say, $1000 in cash, and I would rely on ATM/electronic transactions/checks for additional money. Surely it wouldn't be illegal in any EU country that I know of (but…

> but just any law enforcement would find such an amount of cash suspicious, and probably trigger an investigation It feels like it's almost illegal to own cash when I read this. Would someone please tell why? It's OK to live in a debt, probably a very high one, buying expensive things like luxury car in credit. Is it forbidden to save cash? If it's OK, then why is it suspicious to travel in a car with cash?

[deleted]

Re: Using loophole, Seward County seizes millions from motorists without convictions

#99
post #97
post #55

Without wanting to offer an opinion on the case presented in this article, and certainly not wanting to argue in favor of civil asset forfeiture, which is obviously abused nationwide, the author of this news piece definitely smoothed down the facts alleged in Bouldin's case: The officer testified to various pieces of information that he obtained during the stop that led him to believe that Bouldin intended to purchas…

I have to agree here. The author, I would argue, does the topic a disservice by not presenting the details of the state's arguments and evidence against Bouldin, and not more clearly distinguishing stories of two methods here. The "abandonment" form and negotiation, sounds quite a bit like legalized bribery. But with Bouldin, given the evidence (to what you quote, the supreme court summary [1] adds that his prior con…

This is all true and thoughtfully written; the only wrinkle I want to add here are that the shift, from the "preponderance" civil standard to "reasonable doubt" criminal standard, is corrected here not by waiting for Bouldin to actually get caught trafficking, but by charging him under Nebraska attempt liability statutes; in other words, we're in some sense rooting for Bouldin to lose not only his money but his freedom by rationalizing the law.

Re: Using loophole, Seward County seizes millions from motorists without convictions

#100

Until federal courts put a stop to this insanity, I think congress should pass a bill that cuts off Federal Highway funding to any state that allows this sort of thing to happen.

You have to study the US political landscape for 5 minutes to understand why this will never happen. Police departments across the country, states benefiting from such practices as well as the US Congress are all dominated by the republican party. They are not going to legislate away their own power to transfer money from citizens of liberal states.
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