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Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

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Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#91

I was one of the last few to go through conscription and service in Germany before it was a abolished I hope it does come back. (including of course the alternative civil service) For one it instills in young people a sense of duty and direction and also simply physical fitness which many struggle with these days, in Germany an important aspect was always to have civilian supervision in the military ('citizen in unif…

Currently, 14% of pupils (of any gender) in Germany are not eligible for military service because they are not citizens. Conscription (which was never formally abolished) does not extend to females. Based on what others have told me about their basic training, it used to teach a view of masculinity that bordered on the reactionary even back then, and would be unacceptable to broader society today. (I don't know much about replacement service, mine was an underpaid office job.) Therefore, I think we'd need changes that make conscription unrecognizable before we can say that it somehow promotes societal cohesion and inclusiveness.

Regarding self-selection and career prospects: We went to a military fair on a school trip in the 90s. There was an enlistment pitch, too, and even then (conscription had not yet been paused), they seemed to target those who didn't know what they wanted to do with their lives. (Everyone in my class was technically headed for tertiary education eligibility, so unemployment was a far-away concern.)

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#92
post #19
post #3

The obvious question to me is are they arming to defend themselves from Russia or from other European nations rearming? Russia struggled against Ukraine so it seems unlikely that they'd fare well against a country with a similar GDP. Sardonic congratulations to the fine minds at NATO for manoeuvring us towards this outcome. Anyone who feels optimistic as all these armies limber up is beyond an idiot. As a culture we'…

What would "de-fuse this situation" have looked like?

To effectively "de-fuse" the situation in Ukraine, significant historical events would have to have not happened.

To start, the EU loan deal in late 2012 and the CIA-backed coup d'etat known as "Euromaidan" in 2013, could/should have played out differently. Instead it's evident that key players like Victoria Nuland, the CIA / Imperialistic Neo-con agenda played a significant role in exacerbating tensions during that time, ultimately leading to the destabilization of the country.

Secondary, Ukraine should have ceded the eastern territories as "independent states" in 2015 post the Minsk agreements.

Those events have lead to the "special military operation" in 2022, as they disregard the clearly defined "red line" of NATO being in Ukraine which was set by Putin a long time ago.

To defuse things now though? (It's too late now, the Military industrial complex has their pound of flesh.) Have Ukraine exist freely, similar to Finland before it joined NATO. This would respect Ukraine's sovereignty and ensure its independence without it being a vassal to geopolitical alliances.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#93
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only foe even worth considering is Russia - and NATO's combined professional armies are more than a match for them. That's been shown to be true over the last year, but prior to that it was very much an open question. Also from the perspective of "Europe" in an insular sense, it depends heavily on the large standing force and transport capability of the USA. Remember that as recently as three years ago, the occ…

> Remember that as recently as three years ago, the occupant of the white house was publicly musing about the possibility of leaving NATO and aligning with Russia! While the president publicly said that, his actions were different. For instance, President Donald Trump instructed the United States European Command (EUCOM) to be moved from Stuttgart to Mons, near Brussels. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-g…

> While the president publicly said that, his actions were different.

Sure. Certainly no one ever accused the Trump administration of well-coordinated messaging and communications strategies. Nonetheless the fact that the president was personally constrained by the needs and conventions in the rest of his administration isn't much solace to an ally trying to figure out how much reliance to place on US assistance in the future.

The somewhat awkward truth is that a large portion of the republican political base at this point have turned inward and are deliberately hostile to organizations like NATO. That's not good, but it's not something to ignore just because the existing policy apparatus (the "deep state", if you will) is holding it in check for the moment.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#94
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but who would this EU force fight that NATO wouldn't?

A future equivalent to the Kosovo war (that time NATO intervened, but they didn't have to). Or what about wars on the EU's South-Eastern border? Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran. The US has complicated feelings about the region that don't always align with the EU. Also protecting European interests in a future war between Egypt, Sudan and Ethiopia over the water in the Nile River (Egypt is right next door to Greece and Cypr…

well, i'm not convinced that an EU force is viable. NATO has a pretty clear raison d'etre - attack one of us and all of us will respond. but somehow I can't see germany supporting france in west africa, or poland supporting italy in actions against libya.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#95
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remember that as recently as three years ago, the occupant of the white house was publicly musing about the possibility of leaving NATO and aligning with Russia! While the president publicly said that, his actions were different. For instance, President Donald Trump instructed the United States European Command (EUCOM) to be moved from Stuttgart to Mons, near Brussels. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-g…

> While the president publicly said that, his actions were different. Sure. Certainly no one ever accused the Trump administration of well-coordinated messaging and communications strategies. Nonetheless the fact that the president was personally constrained by the needs and conventions in the rest of his administration isn't much solace to an ally trying to figure out how much reliance to place on US assistance in t…

> The somewhat awkward truth is that a large portion of the republican political base at this point have turned inward and are deliberately hostile to organizations like NATO.

According to Global Affairs, support for US commitment to NATO is at a 48-year high. Quoting from https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/sup...:

a) Eighty-one percent of Americans say the United States should maintain (62%) or increase (19%) its commitment to NATO, the highest level of support recorded since Chicago Council Surveys began in 1974.

b) Support for maintaining or increasing the US commitment to NATO is bipartisan, with large majorities of Democrats (90%), Independents (78%), and Republicans (75%) in support.

c) Bipartisan majorities support the admission of Finland, Sweden, Ukraine, and Georgia as new NATO members.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#96
post #15

Heinlein got a lot of flak for Starship Troopers , in the wake of the Korean War and even prior to escalation in Vietnam. But he was not wrong that there's a fundamental difference in democratic outlook between someone who risks their life (even hypothetically) for their country and someone who does not. If you can vote to spend a life, even indirectly, you should have some skin in that game too.

While Starship Troopers concerned a soldier, it's important to know that Heinlein emphasized that military service wasn't the only path. From https://archive.org/details/starshiptroopers0000robe_r5e7/pa... :

> But if you want to serve and I can’t talk you out of it, then we have to take you, because that’s your constitutional right. It says that everybody, male or female, shall have his born right to pay his service and assume full citizenship—but the facts are that we are getting hard pushed to find things for all the volunteers to do that aren’t just glorified K.P. You can’t all be real military men; we don’t need that many and most of the volunteers aren’t number-one soldier material anyhow. Got any idea what it takes to make a soldier?” ... we’ve had to think up a whole list of dirty, nasty, dangerous jobs that will either run ’em home with their — tails between their legs and their terms uncompleted . . . or at least make them remember for the rest of their lives that their citizenship is valuable to them because they’ve paid a high price for it.

and from https://archive.org/details/starshiptroopers0000robe_r5e7/pa... :

> if you came in here in a wheel chair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to insist on enrolling, they would find some- thing silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe. The only way you can fail is by having the: psychiatrists decide that you are not able to understand the oath.”

Embassy staff and Peace Corp members both risk their lives (even hypothetically) for their country. Anglican missionaries risk their lives (even hypothetically) for the state, under the authority of the state's established religion. The nurses in US federal-run hospitals, nurses risk their lives doing dirty, nasty, dangerous jobs that definitely risk their lives.

All of them would be citizens, right?

That said, Heinlein magically waived corruption away. Who gets to decide if a candidate should serve as, say, a combat pilot in the National Guard rather than be deployed overseas as an infantryman? And is it possible to pull strings so a powerful politician's son gets preferable treatment?

Bear also in mind that many people enter the military not to risk their life but to get, for example, college money or training for a career. They risk their life in the same way that a lumberjack does - death is a calculated risk, and not, as Heinlein argues, evidence that the soldier has the "emotional conviction that the whole is greater than the part . . . and that the part should be humbly proud to sacrifice itself that the whole may live."

Remember, that book also says the only way to train children is to beat them - a brutal practice I wish were prohibited in the US as it is in 65 other countries. https://endcorporalpunishment.org/countdown/

> If you can vote to spend a life, even indirectly, you should have some skin in that game too.

The US has been at war for nearly its history, and glorified war to boot. Heinlein trained to be a military officer. What would happen if the US fought no wars? What happens if there is not enough skin to lose? If there are no enemies to fight?

More specifically, how would that work in Iceland? No standing army, a Coast Guard with three ships and four aircraft, the ICRU with "200 people, of whom about 30 are active at any given time" says Wikipedia.

Do the ~10,000 members of the Icelandic Association for Search and Rescue have enough skin in the game that they should be allowed to vote?

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#97
post #67
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The obvious question to me is are they arming to defend themselves from Russia or from other European nations rearming? From Russia of course.

Then get some nukes and threaten to use them if attacked. Strategy seems to work fairly well and way cheaper. If Russia did not have any their conventional forces most likely would've been wiped out by now. Very strong conventional force I think is mostly needed as a threat to others which is not what progressive society should be looking for.

And what comes after the nuclear exchange? A military conflict is 90% logistics. To rebuild, a nation that is well prepared for catastrophe will manage.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#98
post #64
post #6

Most of Western Europe is unwilling to fight for their country https://preview.redd.it/of-europeans-who-would-fight-for-the...

Makes sense when "fight for your own country" means "dying in a desert half a world away for no real reason".

[dead]

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GB and France are?

> GB and France are? While the UK and France have nuclear warheads, their numbers (225 and 290, respectively), pale in comparison with that of Russia (5889) and the US (5244). Also, the UK's force is sea based and France's is land and air based, both Russia and the US have a nuclear triad: three-pronged military force structure that consists of land-launched nuclear missiles, nuclear-missile-armed submarines, and str…

> While the UK and France have nuclear warheads, their numbers (225 and 290, respectively), pale in comparison with that of Russia (5889) and the US (5244).

Around 90% of the non-rural Russian population is in their most populous 100 cities. Taking those out would pretty effectively destroy Russia as a country.

Re: Europe: Is compulsory military service coming back?

#100
post #97
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then get some nukes and threaten to use them if attacked. Strategy seems to work fairly well and way cheaper. If Russia did not have any their conventional forces most likely would've been wiped out by now. Very strong conventional force I think is mostly needed as a threat to others which is not what progressive society should be looking for.

And what comes after the nuclear exchange? A military conflict is 90% logistics. To rebuild, a nation that is well prepared for catastrophe will manage.

The whole idea is that potential damage is so high that it makes no sense to start conflict. MAD so far worked good enough to prevent major powers from going to war.
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