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Re: Spore Stats

#91
post #90

As dumb as it sounds, I think I didn’t like it because it was too “Will Wrightish”. Felt more like Sim City than The Sims. Sim City was too brainy, my 10 yr old self didn’t want to do homework about power/water resources. The Sims was a complete sandbox. Spore wasn’t brainy, but I expected it to be more free form. The 4 stage concept kills any reply value because there’s not much left to be curious about. The creatur…

> Sim City was too brainy, my 10 yr old self didn’t want to do homework about power/water resources. Aw, I always thought those were the best parts (my 4 year old self fucking loved the SimEarth manual - the one that went into detail about things like prokaryotes vs. eukaryotes - and there was a giant SC2K strategy book that was The Best) and didn't like Spore because it wasn't Will Wright enough . Which was probably…

I guess to be fair, I was never a big Maxis fan lol.

I briefly played just about all of them, but not enough to form an opinion.

I found Streets of Sims to be my favorite because I always loved Twisted Metal and the extension to Sim city maps was really cool. Sim copter felt like well…a Sim and I really didn’t know what that was when I was little, so they all just felt like boring intellectual games.

I also touched Sim Towne, Sim Ant, and other weird stuff like that. Again, same feelings.

It wasn’t until I touched Roller Coaster Tycoon and Red Alert 2 that I REALLY got into rts games more.

Re: Spore Stats

#92
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I'm always cautious when game developer advertise "game within a game" like this. More modern examples would be both Pathfinder games with mediocre kingdom management minigame in first, and bad HoMM clone in the second. Thankfully the main game was still good. On other side there are games that successfully pulled it but usually it's a some simple-but-satisfying minigame, not some big element of the game.

Sid Meier learned that lesson, though the game he learned it in (Covert Action) remains one of my all-time favorites, up there with XCOM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Meier%27s_Covert_Action#De... > The mistake I think I made in Covert Action is actually having two games in there kind of competing with each other. There was kind of an action game where you break into a building and do all sorts of picking up clu…

Covert Action is also one of my all time favorites (I bought an external numpad for my laptop to be able to play it decently). I can fully understand why people wouldn't like switching modes for so long so often, but that was part of the charm for me. You got to play detective, cryptographer, James Bond, and maybe could catch everyone in time. Shadows of Doubt scratches a bit of the itch for me, but ai really want a remaster of Covert Action.

Re: Spore Stats

#93

Oh, Spore. That game was hyped so much, given it was designed by none other than Will Wright it previewed like it would be the most amazing game ever made. Despite it being reviewed every well upon release, gamers expected even more. It's a good example of how it is important to temper your customer's expectations regardless if you believe you have a solid product, as you may inadvertently set expectations higher tha…

The lessons from World of Warcraft and Doom are give your users tools to write their own features/maps, then promote the best of the best to be part of the game.

Just be sure to reward the winners with something, like a lifetime subscription.

Spore tried to make everyone a creator, and “everyone” are terrible people. In the YouTube Era he may have had more options, like taking creations from popular streamers, or highly upvoted contributions.

Re: Spore Stats

#94
I love that the submission is a direct link to an API endpoint serving straight XML and no one seems to even notice, never change HN.

The API seems to be documented here: https://www.spore.com/comm/samples

Conspiracy theory: the documentation I just linked uses "MaxisDangerousYams" as an example user. The user who submitted this on HN is "DangerousYams". I guess we have a Spore dev here?

Re: Spore Stats

#95
post #84
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right way to do this is what Jane's / EA started in 1999 -- individual games that contain code to hook into a unified larger world. It would have been branded "Jane's World War" and shipped with every subsequent sim game, allowing different sim gamers to participate in the same conflict at the same time, from different perspectives. https://www.ign.com/articles/1999/04/29/janes-world-war Sadly, the sim market cra…

That idea is so cool. Eve and Dust got a lot of hype for something similar but I never followed up on how it ended up working out.

I have a soft spot in my heart for ahead-of-their-time or there-but-for-mismanagement game oddities. :-)

There's also an alternative universe where the Japanese game industry cracked the MMO formula instead of Ultimate Online / EverQuest. See Sega's Heat.net / 10six: https://massivelyop.com/2016/07/23/the-game-archaeologist-se...

As a beta player, it was hellaciously fun, in a very similar way to EVE, even on dialup.

Other oddities:

LucasArts' 80s Habitat: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitat_(video_game)

3DO's pre-Niantic Meridian 59: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_59

Sierra's The Realm Online: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Realm_Online (also beta'd this one, which was really slick and well-executed)

Re: Spore Stats

#96
post #94

I love that the submission is a direct link to an API endpoint serving straight XML and no one seems to even notice, never change HN. The API seems to be documented here: https://www.spore.com/comm/samples Conspiracy theory: the documentation I just linked uses "MaxisDangerousYams" as an example user. The user who submitted this on HN is "DangerousYams". I guess we have a Spore dev here?

[deleted]

Re: Spore Stats

#97
I felt it was a bit underwhelming that when I traveled to the center of the galaxy and got that staff of life thing that instantly makes a planet level 3 habitable. The character that gives it to you tells you to find the 3rd planet from Sol (Earth). I found Earth, expecting another cutscene of some sort, but nothing happened. Earth was just a level 1 (if i recall correctly) habitable planet, so I used the staff to make it level 3 and then I just colonized it and kept it as my main base for a while.

I didn't bother trying to kill all the Borg but I did manage to ally myself with them, which makes the rest of the galaxy your enemy.

Re: Spore Stats

#98
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I'm always cautious when game developer advertise "game within a game" like this. More modern examples would be both Pathfinder games with mediocre kingdom management minigame in first, and bad HoMM clone in the second. Thankfully the main game was still good. On other side there are games that successfully pulled it but usually it's a some simple-but-satisfying minigame, not some big element of the game.

Sid Meier learned that lesson, though the game he learned it in (Covert Action) remains one of my all-time favorites, up there with XCOM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Meier%27s_Covert_Action#De... > The mistake I think I made in Covert Action is actually having two games in there kind of competing with each other. There was kind of an action game where you break into a building and do all sorts of picking up clu…

> In Covert Action, you'd spend ten minutes or so of real time in a mission, and by the time you got out of [the mission], you had no idea of what was going on in the world.

But that works perfectly fine in XCOM! But there both elements are build up to the level player will be using it. The combat is main game, but while the "management" certainly wouldn't be enough to make whole game around it, for the few minutes between combat engagements it fits just fine.

Spore problem was that you switched from one game mode to another completely so it was essentially playing next game for few hours.

I think it just needs to be balanced in effort to the time player spends with it. Like players remember Gwent or Triple Triad with fondness.

Re: Spore Stats

#99
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of potential, and I think that if they did a sequel where they added depth to every stage it would've been a lot better. I mean the last part of the game is a 4x like Stellaris, other parts are RTS / city builders, etc. On that note, I wonder why there hasn't been anything like it from the indie developer space.

There was a community effort to make such a game since the original Spore came out. https://revolutionarygamesstudio.com/ Since this was too ambitious, they focussed just on the cell stage. They are working on that to this day. https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1779200?updates=true

Thanks for the link

Re: Spore Stats

#100
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sid Meier learned that lesson, though the game he learned it in (Covert Action) remains one of my all-time favorites, up there with XCOM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Meier%27s_Covert_Action#De... > The mistake I think I made in Covert Action is actually having two games in there kind of competing with each other. There was kind of an action game where you break into a building and do all sorts of picking up clu…

> In Covert Action, you'd spend ten minutes or so of real time in a mission, and by the time you got out of [the mission], you had no idea of what was going on in the world. But that works perfectly fine in XCOM! But there both elements are build up to the level player will be using it. The combat is main game, but while the "management" certainly wouldn't be enough to make whole game around it, for the few minutes b…

> But that works perfectly fine in XCOM! But there both elements are build up to the level player will be using it. The combat is main game, but while the "management" certainly wouldn't be enough to make whole game around it, for the few minutes between combat engagements it fits just fine.

People raise that in commentary about the rule (notably https://www.filfre.net/2017/03/whats-the-matter-with-covert-...), usually in one of two ways:

- XCOM is the exception that breaks the rule

- XCOM is the exception that proves the rule

I tend toward the latter camp. Meier's rule isn't "don't do multiple games", it's "focus on what the game is". To Meier, Covert Action wasn't as good as it could've been because of the lack of focus on what the game is — putting together the clues you collect in the minigames to not only solve the case but also arrest as many participants in the crime before they go into hiding.

XCOM and Pirates!, the game that made Meier think Covert Action's stitched-together design would work, work because they know what the game is. "The game" in XCOM is the tactical part, with the strategic parts being lightweight and sufficiently unambiguous that every action you take in it is tangibly, to the player, supporting the next tactical success.

Pirates! works because the game is becoming the biggest badass in the Caribbean, and every mini-game — swordfighting, raiding cities, romancing governors' daughters — supports the goal of having the biggest fleet, happiest crew, and that GTA-ish feeling of earning your way into dominance over the setting itself by playing the game well.

Covert Action is fun in the trenches but struggles with that top-line focus. Being good at Covert Action neither makes you better at the next game, or even phase of a single game, of Covert Action. Your character has a kind of pasted-on progression track that doesn't really reflect how you play. The procedural content aspect of Covert Action, which was ahead of its time, also predicted how little we'd enjoy procedurally generated sameness in games that rely on it but also don't "focus on what the game is" — once you start seeing the patterns, the more of the mystique wears off than in a more authored experience, and then you're fully left with how much you enjoy stuff like that chip-swapping minigame or you bounce off the whole thing.

So you don't have to enjoy the minigames in XCOM, or Pirates!, or other similar games that seem to "break" the "rule" like Rockstar's and CD Projekt's oeuvres, the Yakuza series, and whatnot, to enjoy the games because their focus on the core game loop is so tight.

To me, that's the meat of the rule, and that's where Spore's wheels come off. Not only does it lack that focus, it's startlingly clear while playing the game exactly where the design shifted from one that did have and reinforce that focus, to one that actively abandoned it for the kitchen sink.

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