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Debian 12 “Bookworm”

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Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#91

Post by arp242 »

5e92cb50239222b wrote: post #89
arp242 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't control the hardware in the first place. Can you modify the microchips on your hardware? Can you modify the printed circuits? Can you modify a ROM in hardware? In all those cases the answer is "not really", short of some spectacular reverse engineering effort and specialized hardware and skills that even most technical users don't have (you can modify anything with enough effort). All this focus on firmware…

Let's not conflate hardware with software. The first one is practically impossible to modify for a completely different reason than the second one (physical limitations and the need for specialized hardware that costs serious money vs artificial limitations imposed by developers). You can at least repair it (unless you bought into the Apple ecosystem — you knew what you were getting into then), and a relative of mine…

Firmware is inextricable tied to hardware; you could pretty much say it is hardware. Hardware has had "software" in it for decades and no one complains about it either, except when this software is loaded in a particular fashion.

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#92

Post by jacquesm »

enriquto wrote: post #73
jacquesm wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That and the simple fact that without it the hardware you've invested in won't work. So this is very much an individual choice, if you don't have such hardware you are fine but shouldn't be voting on whether or not someone who does have hardware that won't work without proprietary blobs has to go out to buy new gear. There are all kinds of considerations that go in to this decision (for instance: environmental impact…

> the simple fact that without it the hardware you've invested in won't work How is that different from the "if you want to run linux don't buy a winmodem" that we said convincingly twenty years ago ? Would you have approved that linux 2.0 added binary blobs to the kernel in order to correctly work with the hardware that you had invested in (some random winmodem) ?

Winmodems had plenty of alternatives, for PCs the choice is usually limited to 'what you were given' or 'what you recycled from a dumpster'. Linux is typically not the first OS to be installed on any given piece of hardware (even if brand new plenty of people pay either the MS or the Apple tax). And because those are exactly the people that benefit from having a working PC I'm all for maximizing their chances. Choice is a luxury.

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#93

Post by kayson »

This is great news! I really like Debian as a docker host for self hosting since it doesn't have a lot of fluff. The old package versions do cause occasional problems though...

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#94

Post by secondcoming »

fb03 wrote: post #18

Testing this out in a VM. I want to move away from Ubuntu (honestly, from SNAPs)

I tried the same move but I couldn’t find any reason to permanently move to Debian. The biggest problem is that some of the package versions are quite old. Ubuntu is far better when it comes to software updates. The snap stuff is crap though.

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#95

Post by guiambros »

What a weird announcement. It says "To install Debian 12 bookworm ... you can choose from a variety of installation media types to Download..." and "If you simply want to try Debian 12 bookworm... you can use one of the available live images" as if it were all available, but in fact the Debian 12 images are not ready.

It feels like the blog post was written before images were created, but they forgot to add a comment saying when it'll be available for download and published anyway.

I understand by the comments that the apt repos were already updated, so you could install bullseye 11.7 and upgrade to 12 in the OS, but seems a convoluted way to do it. I guess I won't be trying out 12 this weekend.

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#96

Post by Kwpolska »

yrro wrote: post #32
troad wrote: post #5

Congratulations to the Debian team! An important change appears to be the inclusion of non-free firmware by default in the official install image for the first time, as a result of this vote: https://www.debian.org/vote/2022/vote_003 Intriguing. I feel a little torn on this. One the one hand, I appreciate being able to install Debian from an official image onto a bothersome device. On the other, I can't help but feel…

Debian was never a purist distribution. If it was then there wouldn't have been a non-free section in the archive in the first place. The sad truth is that the Linux distributions recommended by the FSF have approximately zero users.

Is it sad? Actually working Linux on real hardware is far more important than purity IMO.

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#97

Post by samtheprogram »

secondcoming wrote: post #94
fb03 wrote: post #18

Testing this out in a VM. I want to move away from Ubuntu (honestly, from SNAPs)

I tried the same move but I couldn’t find any reason to permanently move to Debian. The biggest problem is that some of the package versions are quite old. Ubuntu is far better when it comes to software updates. The snap stuff is crap though.

Just use Debian testing. I've essentially been running Bookworm for about year now (that's actually the version name used in my apt conf). Ubuntu is pretty close to Debian testing version-wise.

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#98

Post by Kwpolska »

secondcoming wrote: post #94
fb03 wrote: post #18

Testing this out in a VM. I want to move away from Ubuntu (honestly, from SNAPs)

I tried the same move but I couldn’t find any reason to permanently move to Debian. The biggest problem is that some of the package versions are quite old. Ubuntu is far better when it comes to software updates. The snap stuff is crap though.

Were you trying out Sid, or stable/testing? Stable tends to contain ancient software, but sid should be recent enough.

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#99

Post by kmos17 »

Congrats and major props to the Debian community! Running Debian in vm’s is such a pleasure, very fast boot times, rock solid, easy install. In contrast recent ubuntu installs have only given me problems.

Re: Debian 12 “Bookworm”

#100

Post by cf100clunk »

themoonisachees wrote: post #30
nntwozz wrote: post #10

The gift that keeps on giving, runs perfect on my headless 10-year old gaming-PC turned server in the basement.

I highly recommend installing proxmox and running debian VMs. It's really easy and the returns are great.

In the parent comment to yours, ''runs perfect'' means runs perfect. No need for an insertion of an additional layer of stuff to just get back to ''runs perfect''.
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