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Rust: The wrong people are resigning

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Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#91

Post by DiggyJohnson »

bluejekyll wrote: post #33
DiggyJohnson wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I vehemently disagree. Unless there is reason to suspect race is a factor, which there is none in this case, then discussion should move on the issue at hand, and speculation about racism should be discouraged or ignored. Your perspective, while well intentioned, is exactly the sort that drives needless division and suspicion in modern discourse.

To be clear, you do not believe that the Rust Leadership should make it clear how they came to this decision such that any speculation of other reasons can be put to bed? The fact that it’s open to speculation is the exact reason they need to address it. Just ignoring it at this point doesn’t seem like a good idea, does it?

No, I absolutely think they should make that clear. But among all the reasons they made this decision, however opaque things have been thus far, I think it’s wrong to speculate that the cause is racism.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#92

Post by robin_reala »

meindnoch wrote: post #86
d3nj4l wrote: post #8

In a way, I find this entire saga incredibly funny. There is so much hand wringing and pearl clutching at something that is supposedly in the shadows - this cabal of four or five people making decisions - that it makes the entire Rust "community" look juvenile. This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers, not about a language whose governance involves multiple major corporations!

>This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers Anime/furry culture has a significant overlap with the Rust community as far as I can tell as an outsider. E.g. there was that guy developing a Linux GPU driver for M1 Macs, narrating it with an anime "waifu" avatar and a speech plugin that makes you sound like a little girl from a Japanese cartoon.

s/guy/woman

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#93

Post by majormajor »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #23
bluejekyll wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the reason they are saying it doesn’t matter, is that without a clear statement of what happened from the decision makers, people can speculate. One of those things people will speculate on is if this was one of the reasons. The fact that it is also part of the equation means it can’t be outright ignored and so will also need to be addressed. On top of that, this is already an underrepresented group, and re…

I vehemently disagree. Unless there is reason to suspect race is a factor, which there is none in this case, then discussion should move on the issue at hand, and speculation about racism should be discouraged or ignored. Your perspective, while well intentioned, is exactly the sort that drives needless division and suspicion in modern discourse.

How do you define "reason to suspect"? E.g. what separates the actions that would result from your position from the actions that would result from a position of "there's nothing wrong with racism as long as it's not said aloud"? Established behavioral patterns? Less than that? More?

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#96

Post by _-____-_ »

adamrezich wrote: post #71

> The recent incident with ThePHD’s keynote downgrade was not racially motivated, thankfully, but… if that’s what it looks like from the outside, and any form of official communication is still days or weeks away, does it really make a difference? who actually perceives this situation this way? why would anyone perceive this situation this way, by default? this statement is needlessly inflammatory to a ridiculous deg…

As an outsider, when I see drama in the Rust community, I always assume it has something to do with 2SLGBTQIA+ discrimination or racism. In this case, I was surprised when I skimmed the blog post to see none of that, although maybe I was missing some subtle subtext embedded in the pronoun usage or words like "discomfort." I can't follow this stuff anymore.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#97

Post by tanepiper »

rustthrow wrote: post #3

> The recent incident with ThePHD’s keynote downgrade was not racially motivated, thankfully, but… if that’s what it looks like from the outside, and any form of official communication is still days or weeks away, does it really make a difference? yes! it does! we can't keep framing everything as race, gender, or orientation related. people have to have basic filters for what the most important issue is in a situatio…

The last few incidents have been damaging with or without communication. For large companies who need stability to ship software - the Rust story has been one of what looks like a good language being destroyed by shitty leadership and shitty drama.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#98

Post by warent »

meindnoch wrote: post #86
d3nj4l wrote: post #8

In a way, I find this entire saga incredibly funny. There is so much hand wringing and pearl clutching at something that is supposedly in the shadows - this cabal of four or five people making decisions - that it makes the entire Rust "community" look juvenile. This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers, not about a language whose governance involves multiple major corporations!

>This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers Anime/furry culture has a significant overlap with the Rust community as far as I can tell as an outsider. E.g. there was that guy developing a Linux GPU driver for M1 Macs, narrating it with an anime "waifu" avatar and a speech plugin that makes you sound like a little girl from a Japanese cartoon.

Considering two of the first commenters in this gist are Kirby and a Dall-E anime girl, sounds like a spot on assessment.

Not that people should be shamed for their personal interests! Everyone should imbue some of their personal style in their work, that's how we generate creativity and so forth.

That being said, I think the problem is when personal style overlaps too much in what needs more professional separation and distancing. It seems like that can be a recipe for too much ego that creates rifts.

There is a risk that we start turning a serious endeavor into a personal project / hobby, or worse just treating it as a joke; leading to situations like:

  Up until recently, I was part of two private online discussion spaces where a bunch of Rust people hung out.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#99

Post by caust1c »

twelfthnight wrote: post #32
d3nj4l wrote: post #8

In a way, I find this entire saga incredibly funny. There is so much hand wringing and pearl clutching at something that is supposedly in the shadows - this cabal of four or five people making decisions - that it makes the entire Rust "community" look juvenile. This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers, not about a language whose governance involves multiple major corporations!

Wish we had more role models these days who were willing to disagree with decisions and work to fix them rather than loudly resign or point fingers. Feels like there is a lot of pressure these days that if you are part of a "bad" system then _you_ are bad, even if you are trying to improve it from the inside. So it's understandable people quit instead of taking on the burden of having to prove their "goodness", it's…

Golang has lots of good examples of design discussions without vitriol in their RFCs and proposals. There is the occasional bikeshedding and needless bickering granted, but it mostly stays civil and is the most mature language community I've ever had the pleasure of being a part of.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#100

Post by revskill »

proto_lambda wrote: post #81
revskill wrote: post #42

[flagged]

In principle I can agree that Rust (like so many things in tech) is a bit of a sausage fest, and that women can, in my experience, often be better leaders than men especially when it comes to emotional/communication matters like with this whole mess. The wording "real woman" however immediately smells like an attempt to exclude trans women, of whom there are quite a few in the Rust community - even if that wasn't you…

The reasoning is, i don't trust a man in this position can resolve all the conflict. Let woman do that.

The "real" in this case doesn't mean anything, it's just for the sake of avoiding "arbitrary"

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