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What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

mrdbourke.com

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Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#91

Post by yellowapple »

Abimelex wrote: post #51
neilk wrote: post #8

I couldn't find any other reference to this rogue bee thing (except other inspirational essays). Wikipedia's entry on the waggle dance seems to suggest that bees often don't make use of the information in the dance. It's not some rare maverick bees per se. It's more that the information may not be important given the season or climate or presence of competition for the food. So it can be adaptive to ignore it. https:…

It's interesting, that even in a community like HN, almost nobody seems to ask for the scientific reference here. Might have something to do with confirmation bias? Or is there such a thing like sounds-interesting-AF-bias?

Or perhaps the important thing is the story being told rather than the exact scientific accuracy of the setting. Tortoises and hares don't literally talk or enter foot races with one another, either, yet there's still plenty of value to be had from the fable featuring them.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#92

Post by mr_toad »

SeanAnderson wrote: post #81
jasmer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's some heavy handed humanization of ants attitudes there. "in in an effort to prove they're working hard to the other ants" "all ants to be comfortable allowing some of their ant peers to work less" Or maybe on some instinctive level they realize they just literally cannot work in the crowd and wait until they can and that's that.

It was intentional! :) After all, the title of the post we're commenting on is contrasting human behavior to bees. No, I don't believe ants are actually acting with intelligent, social behavior in an attempt to win over their fellow ants. They're just little statistical robots searching for optimality. That said, there have been times that I've been frustrated when I feel I am working harder than my peers and, in tho…

Social behaviour doesn’t imply intelligence, or at least conscious intelligence. Most ants will never reproduce. Their life has no meaning beyond the wellbeing of the colony. It make sense that what is statistically optimal for the ant is social behaviour.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#94

Post by stubish »

twiss wrote: post #3

It's obvious that this is beneficial for the population, but is it (typically) beneficial for an individual? Probably, selfish individuals would only want to try this if they're already well-fed, or if they're confident that there will be some food left over if they don't find any of their own. So, for the benefit of the population, we should probably make sure that everyone is well-fed, so that everyone feels confid…

It is normally high risk, high reward in humans. There is the traditional, conservative, predictable route. And there is the novel, which might work and get you called a genius, but more likely not work well, perhaps leaving you destitute or dead. A successful society needs many people to hunt as their parents taught, and an adaptable society needs a few mavericks to find new hunting grounds, prey, and to invent the boat. Monetary rewards tend to be for the plodding rather than the mavericks, because indulging curiosity is fun and its own reward. There are some theories that this is why some mental illnesses like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder have not been evolved away, because occasionally similar traits can save the tribe when others fail to adapt.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#95

Post by pgreenwood »

jasmer wrote: post #72
SeanAnderson wrote: post #43

The whole "opt out of expected group-think behavior" reminds me of a paper regarding the tunneling and movement behavior of ants: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/science/ants-worker-idlen... The gist of it is that 30% of studied ants do 70% of the work in digging tunnels. Other ants come in, see that it is too crowded, and don't try to force their way in in an effort to prove they're working hard to the other ants…

That's some heavy handed humanization of ants attitudes there. "in in an effort to prove they're working hard to the other ants" "all ants to be comfortable allowing some of their ant peers to work less" Or maybe on some instinctive level they realize they just literally cannot work in the crowd and wait until they can and that's that.

Yes we should be careful not to anthropomorphise ants. They really don't like it, and it causes them a lot of anxiety.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#96

Post by soulofmischief »

SeanAnderson wrote: post #81
jasmer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's some heavy handed humanization of ants attitudes there. "in in an effort to prove they're working hard to the other ants" "all ants to be comfortable allowing some of their ant peers to work less" Or maybe on some instinctive level they realize they just literally cannot work in the crowd and wait until they can and that's that.

It was intentional! :) After all, the title of the post we're commenting on is contrasting human behavior to bees. No, I don't believe ants are actually acting with intelligent, social behavior in an attempt to win over their fellow ants. They're just little statistical robots searching for optimality. That said, there have been times that I've been frustrated when I feel I am working harder than my peers and, in tho…

One has to wonder if such a social organism is possible in nature with a lifespan of only a few weeks.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#98

Post by billsmithaustin »

Bruce Schneier made a similar point in his book, “Secrets and Lies: Digital Security in a Networked World“. Quote:

Society needs defectors. Groups benefit from the fact that some members do not follow the group norms. These are the outliers: the people who resist popular opinion for moral or other reasons. These are the people who invent new business models by copying and distributing music, movies, and books on the Internet. These are people like Copernicus and Galileo, who challenged official Church dogma on astronomy. These are the people who—to take a recent example—disrupt energy auctions to protest government responsibility for climate change. They're also people living on the edge of society: squatters, survivalists, artists, cults, communes, hermits, and those who live off the grid or off the land. In 2011, U.S. Marine Dakota Meyer received the Medal of Honor for saving three dozen of his comrades who were under enemy fire. The thing is, he disobeyed orders in order to do so.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#99

Post by Nevermark »

I am going to guess, with my complete ignorance of bees, that the rogues bees take a chaotic path, not a random path.

I.e. a "random walk" would not get them very far and would spend way too much time criss-crossing locations.

Highly creative people have methods to their madnesses too.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#100

Post by batch12 »

sclarisse wrote: post #89
neilk wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, let's give people a break. It sounded plausible. We've all heard of the story of the waggle dance, often in grade school, in a simplified form. TIL 3-2-1 Contact lied to me. That said, I don't believe that computer programmers are, as a group, significantly more skeptical than other professions. Like most people we muddle along with generalizations, lore, and myth.

> TIL 3-2-1 Contact lied to me. Unthinkable! Why, next thing I suppose you’ll impugn Mathnet for fibbing.

You would have better luck pressing ghostwriter for sources.
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